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The Next Uber? What Innovation Really Means in the Credit Union Industry

Ryan Foss, Director of Incubation at Filene

Everyone loves talking about the importance of innovation, including the credit union industry. But what does innovation really mean in an industry that is heavily regulated and often struggling to keep up with the latest digital trends?

Ryan Foss, Senior Director of Incubation at Filene, argues that innovation doesn’t have to involve a flashy app or AI-driven chatbot. Really, innovation comes down to solving problems for credit union members. You can have any type of groundbreaking technology you want, but if it isn’t helping your members achieve their financial goals or independence, it’s not a step forward.

Top 3 Takeaways

  1. While credit unions do exercise a lot of cooperative principles, they often don’t talk about them. People outside the credit union space often get most excited about the cooperative business model, yet they aren’t always the best at embodying cooperative principles. Closing this gap, and voicing explicit support for the cooperative business model, leads to increased problem solving capabilities for credit union members.
  2. In the modern financial landscape, the gap between those with access to traditional financial institutions, and those without access, is growing more rapidly than ever. Within this ever-widening demographic of “unbanked” people, lies of of the biggest opportunities for all credit unions. Using the niche-filling ability of smaller, more flexible organizations is key for giving these people the financial support and services they really need, not just what is most profitable.
  3. Innovation is not always about creating a revolutionary idea. In fact, for credit unions, creating a revolution can be seen as outright unnecessary. Instead, the focus should be on identifying, locating, and executing on “win-win-win opportunities” that benefit 1) society, 2) the credit union member, and 3) the credit union itself.  

Read the full transcript:

Cameron: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Remarkable Credit Union podcast. We created our podcast to help credit union leaders and marketers think outside of the box about community impact, technology and credit union marketing. Each episode we bring on expert guests from inside and outside of the industry for conversations about innovation. Our goal is to challenge your preconceptions about business as usual and provide you with actionable takeaways that you can use to grow your membership, increased share of wallet, and magnify the positive impact in your community.

Cameron: Today’s big question. If there are products out there that deliver financial wellness to consumers and financial returns to credit unions, what can we learn from the latest research and innovations to make them more widespread? Today I’m very excited to welcome Ryan Foss, someone who has become, dare I say, a good friend of mine over the last couple of years. Ryan is the Senior Director of Incubation. He insists that I put the word former in front of this, but it’s pretty cool. Ultra marathoner and long distance ocean rower. Someone who, we’ll hear a bit about this, had a life transformation in Cameroon, Africa of all places that led to him working in life insurance and social impact products in Africa. Ryan is happily married, his spouse just got back from a posting in Mozambique, he has two lovely children and I’ve learned he is a fan of Dutch soccer. Ryan, thanks for joining us today.

Ryan Foss: Well, that was quite the intro. Thanks for having me. I love it.

Cameron: I had to breathe to fit it all in there. You got a great story. So I’d love to start, because we’ve got so much we can talk about today, but can you just tell us in one sentence what your current role covers at Filene because it’s a new role.

Ryan Foss: Yeah, so I’m the Senior Director of Incubation and if I had to put what I do into one sentence, I would say that I eliminate the front-end risk of testing new products and ideas for credit unions to help them make quicker and more knowledgeable decisions and help them accelerate their growth. That’s a loaded sentence.

Cameron: As I said. That might be a run on sentence, but I love it, that that captures, I mean, it sounds like you’re encouraging and taking the pain out of that gap between interesting ideas and where the rubber meets the road and they actually become actionable and implementable by credit unions.

Ryan Foss: Yeah, you said that very well. Maybe you should say it next time, but I always like to say that we kind of serve this niche between a credit union thinking they want to implement something, but they’re not sure, and just giving them more information to help them make a better decision on whether they want to introduce a new product into their portfolio.

Cameron: Got It. I love it. I think I also made up a word, implementable, I’ll to Google that, but I’m sure someone said that [crosstalk 00:02:36].

Ryan Foss: Implementable.

Cameron: All right. Before we get too off track, can you tell us a little bit about, because you have such an interesting background, but just sort of today, tell us about why you’re so passionate about this role and the change that it can create in the credit union space.

Ryan Foss: From an incubation standpoint, you know, credit unions I am very passionate about, especially from a cooperative model perspective. I’m a member of three food co-ops. I’m a member of a beer co-op and I always like to say I’m a member of a sauna co-op. And then when I say that actually the room usually becomes silent because I’m from Northern Minnesota and we say sauna, but it actually, most of the world says sauna. So I’m actually a member of a sauna co-op. But I think the cooperative model is such a beautiful thing and we are at this interesting point in our society where people are really starting to understand the cooperative model, but maybe not connecting the dots to credit unions.

Ryan Foss: And I think we have an interesting opportunity to really show them the value of what the credit union system is and actually truly make change in people’s lives. You know, I’ve been, for the last 15 years, I’ve gone through a transformation in my own life of going through really kind of front, you know, grassroots, frontline, nonprofit work, whether it be helping 10 to 14 year old kids in the juvenile justice system to the poorest of the poor in Kenya and Uganda, all the way to creating innovative life insurance products for a Fortune 500 company.

Ryan Foss: And I really feel like, from an incubation perspective, this is a perfect role for me in that it really blends my passion for really helping people, which is what a credit union should be doing, everything they do should be helping people, and really leveraging kind of best business and best innovation practices while we do it.

Cameron: So you touched on your story a little bit, and it lets people think you’re some kind of saint, I believe [crosstalk 00:04:27] selling food, wholesale food, to restaurants.

Ryan Foss: Yes. So before that I was actually a chef. I was an executive chef at a restaurant in Maryland and I got incredibly burned out. And so I thought selling food would be kind of my transition to do something else. I was like, “Why no food? Let me get some more experience. I was selling food.” But I actually had a kind of a transformational moment in my life, where a friend of mine was from Cameroon and he passed away and I did a 10-day trip with his widowed wife in Cameroon. It was quite frankly my first experience with extreme poverty.

Ryan Foss: And 10 days of living in extreme poverty, and a lot of people have this story, and so it’s not unique, but it really changed my perspective on things to the point where I came back and I was getting off the plane and one of the restaurants I sold to actually called me on the phone and said, “Welcome back! While you were gone, a case of lettuce, you know, a case of 24 heads of lettuce went up a dime while you were gone. And if you don’t change it, if you don’t fix this problem for us,” insert whatever swear word you want. They said, “We are blanking going to go to someone else.” And I was getting off the plane, my phone rang, it was them. And I just had this kind of life transformational experience and I said to myself, “I’m out, I’m done.” I started crying right there and I was like, “I need to do something else.”

Ryan Foss: And that led me down this path that I would not be here today if that would not have happened because that led me to just start volunteering everywhere and trying to find my niche. And at the time that was working with 10 to 14 year old youth in the juvenile justice system, who were either truant or first time offenders. And really working with them on a personal level two to four hours a week over the course of a year. And ended up being a Director of Development for a very relevant organization doing that work.

Ryan Foss: Got My MBA while I was there, which led to working in communities in Kenya and Uganda on the front lines. Of course, the poor, they didn’t have any support systems, which led me to life insurance and doing innovation, which I never thought I’d get into. But it was an opportunity at the time, which led me to do innovation for credit unions because I felt that was a better blend of my passion for helping people and solving problems for them, while at the same time kind of leveraging kind of that innovation and business model that I was hoping to leverage. I did not think I was going to have these long of answers. So kudos to you for being such an interviewer.

Cameron: I’m just really patient Ryan. No, I mean, I think you have such a really fascinating story, and I think most people, who really get into impact driven roles, have the kind of a story of origin, they can point to one moment or one experience that kind of reframed, and yeah, I can see how the 24 heads of lettuce didn’t seem all that important as you were getting off that plane.

Ryan Foss: Well, a dime. I mean, that’s legit, right? 10 cents.

Cameron: 10 cents. So I’d love to dig into, we may circle back to your story because you’ve got some real interesting learnings that I think frames your worldview. But I’d love to, really at the heart of your role to have you describe some of the most exciting products that you see out there. Bear with me audience. That I think are a win-win-win. So not just the cliched kind of business win, where it’s a win for the consumer and it’s a win for the business, but that we have this opportunity in credit unions to have something that is a win for the consumer, it’s a win for the credit unions and it’s a win for society more broadly. So we’re not going to accept something that delivers a margin to a credit union and whatever marginal, you know, happiness or results to a consumer, it’s got to be part of this holistic lens on society or the membership base as well.

Ryan Foss: Yeah. So I just, don’t want to say just early this morning, got back from New York City where I spent a day and a half with 30 plus credit unions, really workshopping, discussing, debating, implementing ITIN lending programs in their credit union. And ITIN, if you’re not familiar, stands for Immigrant Tax ID Number, and it’s a program that, from an incubation perspective, you know, what we do in the incubator is number one, we really try to seek promising concepts, products, processes, technologies that really show promise to have a true impact in credit unions and more importantly credit union members.

Ryan Foss: And then once we find those products, or processes, we test them in live pilots, live settings in credit unions. And then the most successful ones, we scale through free implementation guides, free resources, free workshops like we did in the past day and a half in New York City. And ITIN is a good example of the journey of incubation. While at the same time, a really good example of what you’re trying to get, where there’s a true win-win-win for society. And ITIN isn’t a flashy new technology, it’s not even a product, right? It’s a tweak to your system. And what it is, is instead of lending purely on social security numbers and traditional information that you collect through the regular lending process, you’re using an ITIN number instead of a social security number.

Ryan Foss: And we tested this, actually, this process in 13 credit unions over 18 months. And it was incredibly successful. I mean, those 13 credit unions gave out over 2000 loans. The volume of that was over $27 million. And you know, the average loan was about $12,500. And so when you think from a consumer perspective where there’s this increasing gap between people who have access to traditional financial service organizations, like credit unions, and those who don’t, it keeps getting larger. And credit unions can help fill that gap through a process like ITIN lending.

Ryan Foss: I mean, all politics aside, we do have growing immigrant populations in our country, and they want access to financial services and they don’t know how to do it. That’s complicated. We as an industry don’t do a good job of helping them get into our system, while at the same time complain about member growth. And this is a really simple way, and I say simple because it’s a tweak to your system. All loans are complex, right? All loans are complex, and you’re just adding a tweak to your complex process. And there are a lot of questions that you need answers to, but people are doing this and they’re doing it in a respectable and relevant way to a population that doesn’t have access. And by the way, those people are actually paying those loans back, right?

Ryan Foss: And so I think, don’t quote me on the actual number, but I think the default rate on those loans are around less than 1% and the return on assets of those loans, I do know that one, is almost 4%, I think it’s 3.8. Where our system average on return on assets is 0.75%, and so this is a population that needs access. So it’s a win-win for them. It helps credit unions increase their growth portfolios and their member growth. So it kind of checks the box on what’s usually a part of a credit union strategic growth plan. And from a society perspective, it introduces our financial service system in our country, that we talk about all the time, to a population that doesn’t have access to it.

Cameron: Cool. I would love to hear, because you mention repeatedly, you know, this isn’t like a super fancy product in a sense. Not that it’s easy because all loans are complex, but that it’s a refinement of an existing process. But maybe more broadly, what have you learned in this process about credit unions and change management? I’m going to share a quip and what is that saying? Don’t throw stones if you’re in a glass house. I know how hard it is to change things. I definitely [crosstalk 00:12:19] in my own business where I’m like, “Why is this so difficult?”

Cameron: But I remember someone telling me early on when we first started working with credit unions, and this was a credit union employee and they, they kind of smiled and they just said, “Everyone in credit unions wants to be the second person to do something innovative.” And I thought, I mean that’s a fair capture of like, and that seem a behavior too, right? We want to be innovative and leading edge, but we don’t actually want to take risk. So what have you learned about that change management process for credit unions over the last few years?

Ryan Foss: Yeah, it’s interesting. I think credit unions, from a change management perspective, they are very aware of the changing world we live in. They understand the changing payment system, they understand some of the trends that they’re seeing in the system, while at the same time getting paralyzed, thinking they need the next Uber to help them out. They need something big to help leapfrog the system or adapt while everything’s changing around them. And I think you said human nature. I think that’s a really good word, and that it’s human nature to become paralyzed when we live in a system that is changing so rapidly around us.

Ryan Foss: And I think, to tie it back to how we started this, when we talked about like in one sentence what my current role does, and what the incubator does. That’s kind of our role in change management, right? We have all these socioeconomic trends, technology trends happening around us and the role that we find is that we can help bridge the gap between some of these technology and process trends that are happening. We can help test that and help make that change management decision easier for you, and help make it quicker. At the end of the day though, I think I could, whatever question you asked me, Cameron, I think I could answer it with this, as long as you’re solving problems for your members, you’re doing the right thing.

Ryan Foss: And I say that because a lot of times people think of innovation or technology, or like what technology are you seeing out there? How our credit union is becoming more innovative? How are they creating the next Uber? And they’re doing that by solving problems for their members.

Ryan Foss: I speak a lot, and I was sitting on a panel, and someone who I respect said to me, “Ryan, we need you to help us find the next Netflix. You know, from a credit union perspective, we need help from you to help us do that.” And I really challenged that person, that individual. And I said, “You know, we do that every day, and you should be doing that every day from a perspective of what are you doing for your members? Are you doing right from your members?” Because Netflix didn’t go out to try to replace Blockbuster, right? They started with, “Why are we paying late fees at Blockbuster? What if we just sent people DVDs with no late fees and they could send them back whenever they wanted?” That’s how it started. It didn’t start with, “How can we replace Blockbuster?” It started with a simple like, “I’m pissed off because blockbuster is doing this to me. I’m going to try to solve that one problem.”

Ryan Foss: Then you know, Amazon, the same thing. Amazon didn’t go out and tried to replace Walmart, or Barnes & Noble, or anything like that. There’s a great interview from 1999 with Bezos, where he’s talking about building warehouses and shipping centers, and his shareholders are pushing back on him saying, “We’re investing in you because you’re a technology company.” And he say, “No, I’m a customer company and they need their products next to them and to do that, I need to build brick and mortar places. We’re not just a technology company if I’m actually going to solve problems for our customers.”

Ryan Foss: That was a long winded answer to kind of push back a little bit and say, you know, kind of this concept of innovation and technology. I think, sometimes we make it bigger than it is and sometimes the biggest innovations start from the smallest of things.

Cameron: Yeah, I love that. Can you tell us a little bit about, back to your own personal story, I believe you guys had a methodology when you were in East Africa for how you would go about introducing new products. That was pretty cool. I’ve heard a lot of people talk about design thinking or consumer centered design, but you know, frankly not as much follow through or delivery. And this was one of the more interesting examples I’ve heard.

Ryan Foss: Yeah. So community development is a really complicated thing. And the way the system works is we have these very large community development organizations that do things very well from water to medicine, to clinics, to books, to you name it, but it’s very money driven and funding driven and no one’s doing the hard work. And I’m glad you brought it up, because the work that we were doing in Kenya and Uganda is no different than the work we’re doing in credit unions. So we would literally go into communities that had no services and we like to say it was the poorest of the poorest communities in East Africa. And we would spend six months there. We wouldn’t go there with a water project, we wouldn’t go there with a clinic, we wouldn’t go there with any products and services. We would immerse ourselves and literally just talk to people for six months.

Ryan Foss: And that’s the whole kind of, you know, when you talk about design thinking or innovation methodology, it’s starting with all about collecting insights, gathering insights, and actually collecting themes. What are the themes of these insights to truly get to a root cause of what is the problem of poverty in this area? It’s the same thing in credit unions, you know, like gathering insights around our members around a certain topical area and finding out what the root cause is to the problem. And through that process in small communities in Africa, not only do you find the root causes of poverty, but you develop a trust that other organizations can’t develop to the point where you know they’re giving you the truthful information, which isn’t always the case.

Ryan Foss: Because a lot of companies come, a lot of organizations go into there with, “We are going to give you access to clean water.” And of course they’re going to say yes to that. It’s water and it’s free. But that might not be the true issue of poverty in that community. And that is design thinking from an innovation perspective.

Cameron: That’s incredible. Six months of listening before you start talking. And that’s a really powerful example.

Ryan Foss: It’s hard to fund that [crosstalk 00:18:32].

Cameron: Yeah, everyone wants to fund the ribbon cutting ceremony and I’ve seen that a lot. My nonprofit work as well of someone, a donor, gets excited about X, and gosh darn it, they’re gonna fund X, and you’re kind of left there saying, “Well. You know, do we take it and kind of warp our mission a little bit even though it still seems mostly aligned?” It’s a tough challenge out there. I’d love to hear, I totally forgot that there’s some really cool research by Filene on this. So this is a completely leading question, but Ryan, what do you think the Credit Union of the 21st century looks like?

Ryan Foss: Yeah, we just actually came out with a report a couple months ago called the Credit Union of the 21st Century-

Cameron: Literally called the Credit Union.

Ryan Foss: Literally, literally.

Cameron: I’ve read it and I forgot. So this is [crosstalk 00:19:17] question ever.

Ryan Foss: It is. And for those of you who love reading research reports. It’s almost 100 pages and so it’s very meaty. And it was actually written by our Senior Director of Research, my colleague, Taylor Nelms. And at the time when he started it, he wasn’t our Senior Director of Research and now he is, he has a PhD from UC Irvine and he’s done something incredible work in the cooperative and financial space. And this report is really topical from the times right now. And so it’s really kind of paints the picture of what the future of credit unions might look like and what might be in the next century, or in the next 100 years.

Ryan Foss: And it really paints a picture of the landscape that’s enabled by technology. But then also kind of altered or transformed by all these kind of socioeconomic trends that are happening all around us. And so, when I was talking from an ITIN lending perspective, there is this kind of growing gap between the haves and the have nots, whether it’s having access or whether it’s from a, “I have this much money and you don’t” perspective. And that gap is growing. That’s one of the trends that it really digs into.

Ryan Foss: And, and I won’t go into all of them. It’s 100 pages, but it also touches on, you know, this growing gig and contract work economy. You know, I think, let’s say, 20% of all workers already today are either gig or contract workers. And those don’t have access to traditional benefits like other workers. And so there’s an opportunity there for credit unions to help fill a void there. And then, something near and dear to my heart is kind of this just generational division between Gen Z, Millennials to Gen X, to baby boomers still. And I’m a good example of it, of saving for my kids’ college. They’re not living with me with a job, but I’m saving for their college while at the same time I have some elderly parents that I’m trying to help them out as well.

Ryan Foss: And so we’re kind of kind of in the middle, as Gen Xers, who used to get all the brunt of the same verbiage the millennials get nowadays, that we’re kind of in the middle of that. But then, it also dives into a lot of technology around voice and video capabilities and what that means from a credit union and a branch perspective. And it really dies deep as well into kind of the changing nature of our relationship with automobiles and the transportation industry, in that right now I think the average credit union has 40% of their loans from automobiles in their portfolio, and that world is changing with Uber and Lyft, and transportation in this ever changing disruption of autonomous transportation that’s coming down the pike here. And we really need to be looking at it from a different lens and a different perspective.

Cameron: Yeah, it’s funny, I was just talking to a friend a few days ago who owns a few car repair shops and he was talking about how much that business is changing because, you now, increasingly fewer people are owning their cars, or they’re leasing them. And so they don’t really think, you know, from a longer term maintenance standpoint. And I think these are all, we’re just kind of seeing the little cracks starting to show up in the system, but it’s going to be a huge change when vehicles are just kind of a utility and we don’t think about them so much.

Ryan Foss: Exactly. So if you take kind of that concept you’re talking about like that’s one narrowly focused thing that really has a huge implication for credit unions. But you take kind of the income volatility, and population disruption, and the changing nature of how we use payments, how we pay for things, right. And this report takes all those socioeconomic and technology trends and really tries to package them into saying, “Okay, what’s the credit union implications around this?” And what that is, is we might need to change the way we do business, whether that be from a, what we call kind of an ambient banking perspective, which where we kind of blend like Alexa style kind of technology to real kind of hold handing at the same time, you know, kind of blend that to relationship banking to almost really rethinking what do the credit unions role in a community is.

Ryan Foss: Is our role truly helping members or is our role bigger than that? Is our role more than just a transaction and should we be more ingrained in the community than we are? And then automated banking, as technology increases around data driven solutions, are there things that we can leverage that really automate decision making and automate product selling so that we can actually do the hard work in person? What relevant things can we automate so that we can get even better in kind of the personal touch? Which is what we do well

Cameron: Sounds like a great report. I’ve not read all 100 pages full disclosure, but Taylor is a brilliant guy. I really have enjoyed hearing him. I’d also would like to sort of bring that back though. That probably encourages a bit of the sense of overwhelm and just to your comment that if you are solving problems for the members, then you’re doing the right thing and you’re innovating. Because I think that’s where the overwhelm can distract the focus. Are there any other takeaways or key things you’d like to leave our audience with as we close?

Ryan Foss: Yeah, no. There’s a couple things. The first one is, you’re talking about doing things for your members and we just talked from the lens of the 21st Century Research report and from the lens of ITIN workshops, and understanding that income volatility is growing right now, right? Income volatility is a huge issue. More and more people make more money one month and less money the next. And so from an incubation perspective, one thing we’re testing right now is an income share agreement, which is an alternative lending product that is tied to a person’s income. And so if you want to loan someone $5,000 instead of tying that to an interest rate, we actually say, “You agree to pay us 3% of your monthly income over the next four years.” You know, that’s just a kind of baseline example to give you an example of what it’s like.

Ryan Foss: So if their income increases, they pay more. If it decreases, they pay less. But it’s an interesting concept because a lot of people struggle with paying loans that are the same premium every month when their income changes every month. And so it’s a simple way to actually be there for your member and we’re testing that right now. And so I would invite your listeners to, shameless plug, go to Filene.org and go to our incubator and find out what we’re testing, and see if that’s something of interest to you. Or, from like an ITIN lending perspective, if there’s something we’re trying to scale that has shown a lot of success, email me, call me, download our implementation guide and we would love to see how we can get more of these win-win-win products in the hands of credit unions and get them scaling.

Ryan Foss: And the last thing I will leave you with, because this is how I try to close kind of all my presentations, is it’s a great quote from Ed Filene. If you’ve never heard of them, Cameron, Ed Filene is actually the namesake of our organization. He’s the founder of the credit union movement in North America. He has a great quote where he says, “The moment a business ceases to be an experimenter and comes to regard itself as an expert, it may be sure that dry rot has set in.” And so thank you for the innovation podcast. Get people thinking differently. So dry rot doesn’t set in. Not Enough people say the word dry rot anymore.

Cameron: Well, I’m going to file that away with sauna. Thanks, Ryan. Hey man, it was really great having you on the podcast and I hope it’s spurred some good thinking for everyone. You guys are doing really great innovative things and I really appreciate how you’re working hard at bridging that gap between all the interesting, bright, shiny objects out there, that I think Filene is so good at unearthing, but connecting that to actual implementation with that consistent theme of solving problems for members and society.

Ryan Foss: Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Cameron.

Cameron: All right, take care.

Ryan Foss: Bye.

Cameron: All right, I’d like to wrap as always with some key takeaways. Really enjoyed the conversation with Ryan. I always learn something every time I talked to him. One of the first things that stood out to me is Ryan is a guy who comes from outside of the credit union space, and you heard him talk about saying, “I’m passionate about credit unions, especially from a cooperative standpoint.” And I think one of the interesting things I’ve noticed is that most people I meet inside the credit union space, let’s just say they’re moderately excited about the cooperative element of credit unions, but most people I talk to outside of credit unions who don’t really know anything about credit unions, whether they may or may not bank with the credit union, the cooperative model is the thing they get most excited about. So I just wonder what opportunities there are with more clearly using that word and more clearly engaging our members and potential members around that.

Cameron: The second thing that stood out was how Ryan talked about his transformational experience. You know, firsthand seeing extreme poverty and how that kind of changed his paradigm, his worldview, and it’s something I wonder. We all have different degrees of opportunity, and privilege, and commitments, but what opportunity do we all have to put ourselves in a situation that maybe takes us outside of our comfort zone, and makes us uncomfortable, and exposes us to seeing a different side of the world that might change our perspective on the world in our own lives.

Cameron: The third thing was, Ryan really capturing, as he said, the gap between access to traditional financial institutions is growing and it’s growing really fast and that that is the biggest opportunity that credit unions have, is to fill and address that gap where the traditional financial institutions just aren’t available and aren’t stepping up.

Cameron: The next thing was Ryan sees a lot of different things. He’s seen a lot of different tests, and his comment that of all these win-win-win products, where you can really, you can feel good that you’re doing right by your society, you can feel good that you’re delivering tremendous value to your members, and you can feel good that you’re being responsible and helping the financial performance of your credit union, is in this ITIN lending space.

Cameron: And I know a lot of money has been invested to put on these workshops they’re doing, I think every month or so, so that people can go and sit in the crowd and face to face learn about this, what the opportunities are, what the challenges are, what the roadmap to change looks like. And then lastly, I just loved Ryan’s comment that credit unions struggle, and I can empathize and relate to this.

Cameron: I think of this sometimes in my own business, but they struggle with thinking they need to find the next Uber, the next Netflix, they need to be this tech superstar. And that really if you’re solving problems for members, you’re doing the right thing and you’re innovating. I think those are powerful words that we could probably all benefit from scribbling on a piece of paper, and a post-it note, and putting it on our computer monitor.

Cameron: All right, thanks for joining us today for another great episode. Join us next time for a really fun conversation about marketing innovation with Sean [Keener 00:30:26] , A very successful entrepreneur who knows nothing about credit unions, but knows a lot about marketing and technology and business model innovation. Until then, I wish you the best of luck in making your credit union remarkable.