Why Credit Unions Need to Start Thinking About Digital Responsibility

Is your website environmentally sustainable? Are there gender or racial biases in your AI algorithm that impact your relationship with potential loan applicants or prospective employees? Do you involve all stakeholders in your technology initiatives?

If you’re not sure about the answers to any or all these questions, you’re not alone. Tim Frick, CEO, author, and expert on digital ethics, joins us to talk about why we should start talking about on the emerging concept of digital responsibility, what areas your credit union needs to focus on to be digitally responsible, and how we can stop tweeting our way to a warmer planet.

Tune in for this month’s BIG question: What is digital responsibility and how can your credit union do better?

Key takeaways

• The Internet has a larger environmental footprint than the commercial airline industry. What are we all doing in this area to be responsible? Tim suggests making a NetZero carbon commitment through two simple methods: power your technology with renewable energy and use offsets to cover the rest of your carbon footprint.
• Beyond the environmental footprint, but what about the economic, social, and technological impacts?
• AI has immense power to create efficiencies and improve service quality, but it can also amplify inequities. Read Automating Inequality for more on this important topic. 
• Most irresponsible technology doesn’t start off with that in mind; it usually comes from under-resourced teams and is the result of unintended consequences. One of the best ways to combat this is to make sure that you are looking at engaging not just users with your technology initiatives, but all of your stakeholders. This could be community members you don’t yet serve, people with different abilities who use assistive technology, or your most financially stressed members. 
• For more, check out the two resources that Tim’s company was involved in building: ecograder.com, which offers a lot of good ideas to improve your digital environmental footprint; and sustainablewebdesign.org, a free educational resource.

Read the full transcript:

Cameron:
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Credit Union podcast. We created our podcast to help credit union leaders think inside and outside of the box about marketing, technology, and community impact. Each episode, we bring on expert guests for conversations about innovation. Our goal is to challenge your preconceptions about business as usual, and provide you with actionable takeaways that you can use to grow your membership, improve the financial health of your cooperative, and magnify the positive impact in your community. Today’s big question: there’s been a lot of discussion of digital transformation in the credit union space, but what does it look like to do a digital transformation responsibly? Maybe even more importantly, what does it look like when it’s done irresponsibly?

Cameron:
Today, I’m really excited to welcome Tim Frick. Tim is the founder and CEO of Mighty Bytes, B-Y-T-E-S. They’re a technology company that, for 23 years, has helped, as they say, conscious companies, social enterprises, and large non-profits solve problems, amplify their impact, and meet business and marketing goals. They have helped hundreds of organizations achieve real, measurable results over the course of their history. Tim is also, I was really excited to learn this because I’ve known him for a while, he’s the author of four books: Designing for Sustainability, two editions of Return on Engagement, and Managing Interactive Media Projects. Tim is also the founder of the Chicago Community of Certified B Corporations, no small feat. Most importantly, Tim is my friend, if I can call him that. I have yet to have someone say no to that. Tim, thanks for joining us today.

Tim:
Thank you for having me, Cameron.

Cameron:
Tim, you’ve been doing a lot of work lately in this realm of corporate digital responsibility. Can you share at a high level what you mean by that, and how it might apply to the financial industry?

Tim:
Sure, happy to do that. I want to do a little bit of backstory in order to tell that story. When we became a certified B Corp in 2011, the process of going through the B Impact Assessment was an eye opener for us. We really found out that we were doing really well in some areas, and that we weren’t doing so well in other areas. I think that’s a pretty common thing for companies that first go through the B Impact Assessment. Given that we build the internet for a living, we build digital products and services for our clients and stuff, the environmental impact of the internet was just starting to come to light in terms of mainstream media coverage and stuff like that. We thought, “Hmm, well, what is it, since we build this thing for a living, what is it that we can do to mitigate the environmental circumstances that comes along with building websites and stuff like that?”

Tim:
That has evolved. We came up with a series of practices around that. Designing for Sustainability, the book you mentioned, came out of that whole process, which came out of being a B Corp. But, that has evolved, especially over the last year or so, into a broader realm of not just environmental sustainability, but responsibility and ethics around how you use digital products and services within your organization. It was important for me to move beyond just environmental sustainability in terms of the work that we do, in seeing platforms like Facebook and some other big tech organizations employing surveillance capitalism and potentially undermining privacy of their users and stuff like that. There is a lot of ethical and responsible decisions I saw being made, especially around the rise of fake news and misinformation, and stuff like that.

Tim:
I really started researching and came across this article in MIT Sloan Management Review about corporate digital responsibility, or digital responsibility in the corporate area, or something like that. It broke down corporate digital responsibility into four categories: social, economic, environmental, and technological. Each one of those has a set of practices underneath it to help you better align the digital decisions that you make with more responsible practices. I think, for the financial industry, it certainly could be that any number of these things apply to any number of organizations, credit unions or otherwise.

Cameron:
Well, I think, Tim, that’s one of the reasons I was so excited to have you join. As I said in the big question, there’s been all this talk of digital transformation for many years, but really, obviously, getting amplified as so many things have shifted to a remote environment because of the impact of COVID. I just love the expertise and the perspective you’re bringing. I’d love to do something that I always find really helpful.

Cameron:
You’ve probably heard of this concept of the pre-mortem. The idea is, before you do a project, you sit down and you just say, “Okay, it’s nine months from now. This project has been a complete unmitigated disaster. What went wrong?” We actually do this for every one of our client redesigns, because it’s really helpful to get really clear on the opposite of success. We find a lot, and not just, we have that default optimism that we have as humans. I’d love to hear, before we get into all your best practices and learnings, what’s the opposite of corporate digital responsibility? Let’s say a credit union underwent a digital transformation in a radically irresponsible way. What would that look like, and how would they have gotten there?

Tim:
Sure. Well, I think first of all, it should be noted that it is very unlikely that that radically irresponsible approach would be intentional. Most organizations wouldn’t set out to say, “We’re going to do the most irresponsible digital transformation we can think of.” That’s not usually how this stuff works. Usually, all the intentions are good going into it, but then what happens is, as a digital product or service scales or as it reaches new communities or new users, unintended consequences occur. I think that’s really where a lot of the issues at the heart of corporate digital responsibility arise. Sometimes that’s due to inappropriately or inadequately resourcing research or development teams. Sometimes that could mean that you haven’t accurately represented diverse enough perspectives in the creation process.

Tim:
Say you’re building a new website or a digital product, and it’s meant to hit a certain demographic, and you don’t have that demographic represented in the creation process. That can cause big problems, and it definitely can cause you lost money and missing the mark on that. The number of different things could happen that send that off the rails, the project off the rails. Without some sort of oversight and looking at a bigger picture, what starts out as a small issue ends up turning into larger problems that can have more dire consequences and potentially be organization-wide as the transformation that you’re working on scales up and out within your organization. Then, suddenly one day you wake up, and there’s this massive issue that your products are undermining privacy, or they’re putting your customer’s data at risk, or even worse consequences. A lot of this corporate digital responsibility stuff is really about heading off unintended consequences before they arise.

Cameron:
Well, thanks for sharing that. As I said, I really find that was, you said, it’s the result of all the good intentions and all these unintended consequences of small mistakes later is really helpful to see that. Going back to the core concept, I’d love to hear, as you said, you break corporate digital responsibility down into these four categories of social, economic, environmental, and technological. Can you talk a little bit about what you mean with each of these four areas?

Tim:
Happy to do that, and I will try to keep it as simple as possible, even though each category in and of itself is deep and wide. There’s a lot going on in each of them. But, social digital responsibility asks the question, how might your digital product, services, or practices create a harmonious relationship with society? In other words, how are you fighting fake news? How are you bridging the digital divide between access and not access? Are you incorporating blind hiring practices for digital positions, and so on? Economic digital responsibility has to do with the economic implications that could arise from digital related decisions that you make as an organization. That could take the shape of paying digital workers a living wage, responsible outsourcing, sharing-

Tim:
Digital workers a living wage, and responsible outsourcing, sharing economic benefits, your co-op at PixelSpoke, so you understand what that means. And a number of things that really thinking deeply about what are the economic implications of decisions that you make around digital technologies. Third one is environmental, and so that kind of covers e-waste. So e-waste is a massive, massive problem. The idea of built-in planned obsolescence and a lack of right to repair legislation means that so many of our devices are thrown out more often than they should be, and that has led to huge amounts of e-waste, so coming up with responsible recycling practices and supporting right to repair legislation and stuff like that. But it also means using technology to advance environmental stewardship. So there’s huge amounts of sensor-based technology right now, that’s happening, and a lot of things that can help advance the STGs and move the idea of better planet forward, technology can facilitate a lot of those.

Tim:
At the same time, we should also be thinking about the actual environmental impact of technology itself. So it’s one thing to say, “I’m going to go out and create an application that addresses climate change issues,” but you also want to make sure that the tools that you use are lean and powered by renewable energy whenever possible, so that you’re lessening your environmental impact in the technology decisions you make. Finally, the last one is technological digital responsibility, which is a mouthful. And that’s really asking yourself, how might you ensure that technology solutions don’t harm society? So, social digital responsibility, which I mentioned as number one is really about creating harmonious relationships. Technology is really in the creation process, like how do you make sure that you’re not harming society? So how do you address unintended consequences, like I was talking about earlier, before they occur? How do you build accessibility and inclusion into the digital products and services that you create, that sort of thing.

Tim:
Overall, when you pull these four things together, it’s really about kind of coming up with a holistic organization-wide view of what the implications of your digital products and services and the digital decision making that you make within your organization are so just thinking holistically and organization-wide about it.

Cameron:
I really appreciate that overview of everything, and you touched on some really big things. If I got this right, the SDGs are the sustainable development goals, which is like a collection of 17 goals. I believe that the UN has for creating the planet and societies that we all want to be a part of. And then, yeah, you made me think of a really incredible book I read called Automating Inequality, that talked a lot about when you talked about mitigating harm, Tim, just how not thinking systems through, systems that seems like upfront could save the public a bunch of money, or create a lot of access, how they can also… That notion of technology is an accelerator and just, if they have a bias built in, can just cause so much harm, so quickly. So I appreciate you kind of giving us that broad perspective and raising some of the issues. I’m wondering you can share some examples of companies that you think of are doing corporate digital responsibility really well in some of these four areas?

Tim:
I think just to your point, there has been a kind of nascent movement to create an 18th SDG, like an 18th sustainable development goal that is digital specific. And I think that is really grounded in a lot of these issues that we’re talking about today. If you think about how ubiquitous digital is within every organization and the fact that most organizations don’t have a Chief Digital Officer, or they aren’t really thinking about that kind of stuff, I think the fact that it has reached a level where they’re thinking an 18th SDG might be a viable solution, tells you that this is a thing that is happening. At least it tells me that this is a thing that’s happening on a pretty widespread basis. That being said it is an emerging discipline, and so I’m not sure I have an extensive list of examples for companies that are doing CDR well.

Tim:
We last month on a [Mighty Bites 00:11:57] webinar that we do every month, we had Rob Price from Alchemy in the UK on, and he runs the corporate digital responsibility blog out of the UK. And we interviewed him and he shared a list of country specific initiatives that were working on corporate digital responsibility. And the only listing that he said he could find was our blog, was Mighty Bites’ blog on this kind of stuff. So that tells you that this is still really nascent and that this is an emerging discipline, and so I’m sure there are a lot of companies working on some flavor of this; there’s companies who already have corporate social responsibility departments or people within their departments that are focused on this, and so digital plays a part in that. So it’s possible that CDR could be a subset of kind of CSR. And yeah, it would be great to see this gaining more widespread attention. We mentioned the B Impact assessment earlier; I think that that’s a great opportunity to start including more digital responsibility practices as standards for the corpse and people who use the B Impact assessment.

Cameron:
So you gave a TED talk in my research for this, I found called, “Are We Tweeting Our Way to a Warmer Planet?” And I wanted to share it as a good citizen of the internet, I only watched a small piece of it, but I shared it repeatedly. So that’s how the technology works. But I think, in all seriousness, this is such an important topic and something that’s really overlooked. And the sheer magnitude of the Internet’s environmental footprint is just something I don’t hear talked about enough. I think it’s especially important because often digital is kind of seen as this environmentally friendly thing and reading online versus having a newspaper delivered, or virtual meetings save fuel, which there’s truth to, but I think it’s an incomplete picture. So I’m curious, what considerations do you think that we should all keep in mind when we’re thinking about our environmental footprint in the digital realm?

Tim:
Sure. Yeah. I mean, to your point, virtual meetings do save fuel, and as I said earlier, there are a lot of efforts to use digital to put forth more environmentally friendly in the world. It’s just also important to remember that we can use technology to reduce our environmental impact and those solutions should also follow sustainability principles when they’re designed and built. So in order to do that, think first maybe about how you power your digital products and services. Can you use renewable energy, for instance? It’s possible to find a green host you through things like the Green Web Foundation’s web hosting directory. So that’s a global directory of green hosting providers. You can commit to reducing your own organization’s carbon impact and then offset what’s left as part of a kind of longer-term net zero commitment.

Tim:
At the organization level, for Mighty Bites, one of the first thing that’s came out of, as I mentioned earlier, becoming a B Corp was we started working on kind of sustainable web design practices that were grounded in efficiency and renewable energy, and really kind of going through that. We created a tool called Ecograder, which allows you to it’s an ecograder.com. And you can just put your URL in and it’ll give you some ideas about what you can do on your website to make it more efficient and power it with renewable energy. Earlier this year, we partnered with Wholegrain Digital and the managing partner, Tom Greenwood, over at Wholegrain Digital; they’re based in London. He wrote a book called Sustainable Web Design, that just came out in early February, and we created sustainablewebdesign.org to kind of outline what are the basic principles. And so the principles on sustainablwebdesign.org, our design, how do we create useful experiences that help users accomplish tasks as quickly as possible?

Tim:
So making sure that, for instance, if you’re asking someone to fill out a form, and that form has multiple steps, how can you make that as efficient as possible? And also development: so how do we build digital products and services to be as efficient as possible and prioritize their performance? So I think that’s a huge thing, a lot of websites out there are bloated and load slowly, and the research has been done that slow loading websites lose customers. And so not only are you doing an environmental disservice, but you’re also potentially angering your customers and frustrating them, and they’re going to go somewhere else. So there’s a compelling story to be told there in terms of optimizing your-

Tim:
So there’s a compelling story to be told there, in terms of like optimizing your web development. In terms of like content and marketing and telling your story, we always try to prioritize helping users find the content that they need as quickly as possible. So that might mean search on site so you can find content as quickly as possible. It also might mean that we’re focusing on making sure that that content is as useful as possible for target users. The web is just littered with millions of outdated blog posts and unuseful content. And so that should just all go and that starts with the people who own the websites. And it’s an ongoing kind of governance issue to make sure that you’re keeping your content as lean as possible.

Tim:
I mentioned renewable energy powered hosting, the two things that we added for sustainablewebdesign.org that were relatively new were client and project ethos. So in other words, what are the projects that you’re taking on actually supporting? Are they promoting a more inclusive, regenerative and equitable future or are they kind of grounded in exploitation? So all those other things I just mentioned, you could have the fastest, most efficient website, but if it’s, for instance, promoting tobacco use or somehow supports a non-living wage or human slavery or something like that back in its supply chain somewhere, making sure the ethos of the projects that you take on are kind of grounded in the idea of a more equitable future.

Tim:
And then finally business operations, which is really just how can your organization contribute to a better future in the operations that you do. I mentioned net zero commitment earlier, but that’s just one number of things. As a B Corp, we take a much larger and more holistic approach to being a better company.

Cameron:
The last category CDR, technological digital responsibility seems like it’s just such a hot topic today with the amount of misinformation we’re seeing on social media and just the very real harm that some of these platforms have caused by spreading things that are just not true. What considerations do you think we should keep in mind when it comes to creating technology that doesn’t harm or misinformed stakeholders?

Tim:
Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. And I think it’s one of the technological component of it is where we’re all responsible for creating a website. Every organization at some point is responsible for creating a website or creating a digital product of some sort or purchasing digital services that we use. And so thinking of those things holistically across your organization is incredibly helpful. And it’s important to think about ways in which those things could potentially harm or misinform or a number of things.

Tim:
So think of it this way, like ask yourself a number of questions, like how many digital products or services do you use across your organization? How many do you create? So now if you do an inventory of that, how many practices and policies are associated with the use of those tools, which is probably a lot, what are the opportunities within that to misuse those tools intentionally or otherwise? And then what stakeholders could be impacted that misuse, thinking about that kind of stuff and figuring out who could be potentially have issues with some of the misuse of something as simple as a tweet or something as complex as an AI algorithm, like it really kind of runs the gamut. And there have been known stories of gender bias, racist AI algorithms and such. As well as we all know that there’s a plethora of hateful tweets out there.

Tim:
Just doing a quick mental audit of your organizations, you realize the numbers probably add up pretty fast. And in many cases on gender bias or racist AI algorithms, the consequences could be really dire. And so this is really why we need organizational oversight of these kinds of issues because they impact every department, every discipline, et cetera, et cetera. So when it comes to creating technology, I don’t think a lot of organizations in any sector are really good at understanding stakeholders. And I think as designers and developers, we’ve been trained to really focus on our users, but oftentimes we haven’t embraced a broader idea of human and non-human stakeholders like the planet, or like people who are not necessarily your direct target customers. Figuring out how to validate ideas with those stakeholders before, or as you build something, is as a way to potentially head off something before it occurs. And that can lead to unintended consequences, which, as we said, it can be problematic.

Cameron:
Tim, when you think about financial institutions that you know of, or do business with, how do you see them being digitally responsible and where are the biggest opportunities for improvement?

Tim:
Yeah, I think personally I’d love to see more transparency around how financial institutions invest their customer dollars. I think that’s probably something that a lot of people would be interested in, understanding who is in their supply chain and stuff. Digital channels provide great opportunities for financial institutions to communicate this information. And typically, at least in my experience, it’s not been very easy to find. It’s not where you can just go and say, oh, this company does or does not invest in fossil fuels, they usually don’t broadcast that. And I think that should be easier to find that information.

Tim:
In Chicago, for instance, where Mightybytes my company is located we currently don’t have any B Corp banks. I personally, as a B Corp, know that other B Corp share my values and so I’m naturally inclined to seek out B Corps ays potential options, but I also would like to keep my money local wherever possible. So if I want to bank at a B Corp and I also want to keep my money local, I don’t really have an option in Chicago. And also, add a layer of complexity to the fact that now COVID-19 has our entire team working remotely. So how do we find values aligned financial institutions that apply the same level of customer service that they adhere to in their branches to their online services? I’ve not seen a lot of good UX, that’s user experience design, coming from financial institutions. And I’m sure that’s probably low hanging fruit for a lot of organizations.

Tim:
Then I think, I know the financial sector is very heavily regulated and some of this applies to privacy, security and accessibility, alongside increased transparency that I mentioned, it would also be great to hear how the financial institutions that I do business with are working hard to maintain these things. Those are things that I want to see, so I’m potentially a little bit biased. But organizations also might want to consider how are their branches and online services with renewable energy. Are they visually combating fake news and misinformation, for example, especially as it relates to their sector? Are they investing responsibly in digital projects and by responsibly, I mean, are they outsourcing responsibly? Are the people that are doing those projects, getting paid a living wage? And have they started any waste recycling program? Are they incorporating equitable, inclusive, and diverse hiring practices for the digital positions in their organizations? I mentioned making websites accessible, that’s really, really a big thing and something that anybody should do. So making your website accessible for people with disabilities or those who use assistive technology should be prioritized.

Tim:
And then I think finally crafting a corporate digital responsibility policy for the entire organization. We’re in the process of doing that for Mightybytes right now. And we haven’t nailed it yet, but when we do we’ll get it up on our website. And I think that’s a good place to start for any organization is to say, what does this mean to us and what can we do about it?

Cameron:
I love that idea of creating a corporate digital responsibility statement. I think those are so powerful in my experience to help an organization focus. I also understand that we need to connect you with a mission-driven credit union in Chicago. So prepare for lots of introductions. And lastly, I want to come to one of my favorite topics, which I never want to overdo on the podcast, but as I mentioned at the top, and you’ve referenced, we’re both members of the community of Certified B Corporations for anyone who doesn’t know that one of, if not the most rigorous assessment of an organization’s social, environmental, and workplace impact. It’s both kind of this really incredible and thorough assessment, it’s not easy to do, in all of these areas that gives an organization all kinds of ideas and opportunities for how to kind of live their values, for how to walk the walk. But it’s also a movement-

Cameron:
… For how to kind of live their values for how to walk the walk but it’s also a movement. It’s a connecting place in a convening place of like-minded organizations.

Cameron:
So for anyone doesn’t know, that’s the B Corp world and as I said, Tim, you’re one of… you’re kind of like one of the legends of this world is like you, you convene the Chicago community and you have been building it for a long time and you were an early B Corp.

Cameron:
So tell us a little bit about why did you certify and then why did you go do some of the work of movement and community building in Chicago for so many years?

Tim:
So Mighty Bites opened our doors in 1998 and we’ve kind of always since we started, focused on doing mission-driven work. We really wanted to do work that matters and work for purpose driven organizations. In our early years, a lot of that was working with non-profit organizations and we still do a ton of work with nonprofits, that hasn’t changed.

Tim:
However, discovering the B Impact Assessment in 2010 or 11, was a really eyeopening and also kind of sobering experience. It’s as you mentioned, very rigorous and difficult process but it also really opened my eyes to things that I needed to improve on to be a better business.

Tim:
So we, Mighty Bites became the ninth certified B Corp in the state of Illinois in 2011 and that process gave us a blueprint for creating a better company over time. All the sustainable web design stuff that I mentioned earlier came out of that and we’ve continued to put purpose and impact at the heart of everything that we do.

Tim:
We’re currently in the process of our fifth re-certification, so it’ll be 10 years for us being a B Corp and our fifth re-certification and so I think it’s a milestone. I think one of the reasons that I’ve stayed committed to all of this for so long is the community, as you mentioned, Cameron. That was not the reason that I went into becoming a B Corp. I want [inaudible 00:25:45] become a B Corp because I believed in the idea of using business as a force for good in the world but as soon as I became a B Corp and I started meeting other people in the community, I realized, “Oh, this is my tribe and there’s so much value in the community and there’s so much love in the community and really just so much, so many great things about the B Corp community.” Ad so I wanted to do that in Illinois. I knew that in 2012, that there had to be other people that had the same values and shared the same ideas that I did in Chicago into the greater state of Illinois.

Tim:
So in 2012, we just started hosting happy hours and trying to find like-minded people and telling people to invite their friends and that kind of thing. And those happy hours kept getting bigger and bigger and they turned into educational events and workshops and all of those kinds of stuff and eventually all of that ad hoc effort became B Local Illinois, which now has over a dozen leaders working to grow the organization and support people using business for good in Illinois, which has been really exciting to see. It’s been really wonderful.

Tim:
I really truly believe that this is the future of business and will hopefully someday in my lifetime, see a point where the majority of businesses are acting like B Corps and using stakeholder models for running their organizations rather than the minority.

Cameron:
Amen to that. All right, Tim. We’re going to do some rapid fire questions and we’ve got a bit of a lag. So this could be even more fun than usual but I’m just going to hit you with some quick questions.

Cameron:
So, first question, what is your favorite movie?

Tim:
Oh man. What does it have to do with credit unions again? I’m so terrible at this kind of stuff. I really enjoy a lot of movies, but I… Yeah, I’m sorry. Sorry camera. I need practice. I am totally not as spontaneous kind of guy when it comes to this kind of stuff.

Cameron:
No, that’s why this is fun. This is character building. I saw from your preparation. We’ll try a few more. We’ll see how it goes. All right.

Cameron:
What’s your favorite ice cream?

Tim:
Dark chocolate.

Cameron:
All right. We’re making progress. What’s in the trunk of your car?

Tim:
A jack, a spare tire. I think maybe some snowshoes.

Cameron:
Very practical. I like that. And lastly, what is a place you would like to visit that you’ve never been to?

Tim:
The national parks of Utah. I’ve been to Utah many times but I’ve never been to Bryce or Zion. I would love to bike through those. I’m a big cyclist, so it would be awesome to go cycling through those. I’ll get there someday.

Cameron:
Yeah. Awesome. Well great answer. So Tim, I just love to know, is there before we close, is there anything else you’d like to leave our audience with? Anything you want to reiterate or something you didn’t get to?

Tim:
I don’t think so. I feel like I might have repeated myself a few times, so I’ll leave it to your editing prowess to strip some of that stuff out, but I think I’ve pretty much covered the basics. Would you agree?

Cameron:
Tim, repetition is the sign of a gifted communicator. No, this was fantastic. Thank you. I just wanted to see if… I’ve loved all the information, so thank you so much for showing up and just sharing all of your expertise on such an important topic.

Tim:
Awesome. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.