What Does It Mean to Be a CDFI, and Why Do CDFIs Matter?

Credit unions, by their nature, are community oriented, but some are more intentional about their commitment to impact. Community Development Financial Institutions, or CDFIs, are a perfect case in point. Credit unions now represent a third of the CDFI industry, serving more than 16 million predominantly low income consumers and communities of color.

Chriselle Martinez, CDFI Program Director at Inclusiv, joins The Remarkable Credit Union podcast to talk about what it means to be CDFI certified, how CDFIs benefit their communities, and how they themselves benefit from the certification process.

She also tackles this month’s BIG question:

What are the most important considerations for a credit union that is considering applying for CDFI certification?

 

Key takeaways

1. CDFI is a federally funded program to help financial institutions magnify their community development efforts. It’s a powerful way to get a seat at the table to address big issues with other stakeholders, including health disparities, access to finance, education gaps, and more. Growth has been dramatic since the Great Recession—from about 70 in 2008 to almost 500 today. For some great examples, check out Guadalupe CU and River City CU.
2. The business case for considering CDFI certification includes both the opportunity to get access to more funds to pursue members you might not be able to serve right now, as well as opening up a new set of strategic areas of focus. Strategy is all about focus, and focus is required to get a CDFI grant. You can also get grants to help you build technical expertise. Additional state funds are being launched to make CDFI even more responsive to local needs.
3. Really, every credit union is a good potential fit. Start the journey and who knows where you’ll end up? It might not be as a fully fledged CDFI, but you will deepen your impact and sharpen your differentiation and organizational strategy from what you learn.
4. The big dream is a “Fund the Fund” effort to make CDFI funding permanent, establish a clear focus on helping CUs to maximize their impact and get more of those funds, and create a remarkable amount of support for smaller minority depositor and low-income credit unions so they can stay as the heartbeat of community development.
5. We all have a responsibility to ensure that all Americans have fair access to financial services.

 

Read the full transcript:

Cameron Madill:
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Credit Union Podcast. We created our podcast to help credit union leaders think outside of the box about marketing, technology, and community impact. Each episode we bring on expert guests from inside and outside of the industry for conversations about innovation. Our goal is to challenge your preconceptions about business as usual, and provide you with actionable takeaways that you can use to grow your membership, improve the financial health of your cooperative, and magnify the positive impact you have in your community. Today, I’m excited to welcome an amazing guest and also a co-host for the first time, I’m Cameron Madill, CEO, and one of the co-owners at PixelSpoke.

Kerala Taylor:
Hi, I’m Kerala Taylor. I’m the senior manager of marketing here at PixelSpoke, and also a co-owner. And, I’m really excited to tackle the big question today, what are the most important considerations for a credit union that is considering applying for CDFI certification? I’m really excited to welcome to our podcast, Chriselle Martinez, who is the CDFI program director at Inclusiv. And just to be clear, CDFI stands for Community Development Financial Institution.

PixelSpoke is actually an Inclusiv member and we’re big fans of the work they do to help low and moderate-income people and communities achieve financial independence through credit unions. Chriselle brings an extensive background in community development with a central focus on credit union community and partnership development. She has a doctorate degree from the University of New Mexico, and in 2020 and 2021, she was a Fulcrum Fellow with the Center for Community Investment at the Lincoln Land Institute. And, before entering the financial industry, Chriselle had a 10-year career that focused on resource building, bridging access points, and developing programs for first generation and BIPOC college students in higher education. That’s quite an impressive background there. Chriselle, thanks so much for joining us.

Chriselle Martinez:
Thanks so much for having me on today.

Cameron Madill:
Chriselle, we’d love to start. You’ve got such an amazing background. But we’d love to start centered in the present day. Can you tell us a little bit about your role at Inclusiv and what you do to foster inclusion in the credit union movement?

Chriselle Martinez:
Awesome. Yeah. I’m the CDFI program director, so I work specifically with our members of Inclusiv that are in some way on the journey around CDFI. And so, that can be a lot of different areas. It could be educational areas, analysis of running data, looking at data, capturing data, and then also conversations around management, strategic planning, and maintenance of a CDFI certification. So I see it as an opportunity to have conversations with our membership around where the gaps of resources are for credit unions that are thinking about either becoming a CDFI certified credit union or wanting to gain more understanding around how their certification affects or involves community development and working with their community and their membership.

Cameron Madill:
And Chriselle, I remember back when I was a young Spring chicken going to my first credit union events, I started meeting people who were like, “Oh, well, we’re a CDFI.” Or, “That person’s a CDFI.” But I had never heard the term. Do you mind just giving a very brief explanation of what it is, where it came from, and how credit unions use it today, because maybe not everyone listening is completely familiar with it?

Chriselle Martinez:
Sure. Yeah. CDFI started back in the ’90s. The CDFI fund was pretty much stood up by a coalition of financial institutions, venture capital funds, loan funds, credit unions, banks, that all came together and said that we really needed to have a bane of funding that came through at the federal level and getting some, I would say, bipartisan support through Congress to provide funding to credit unions or to financial institutions that were carrying this particular certification designation. Credit unions in this space, I believe, pre the Great Depression, there was probably about 70 credit unions that were involved in this movement. And, after 2008, I would say, the growth has happened instrumentally. We’re currently at 480 credit unions that are CDFI certified. And, the certification really does help to access another lane of funding for the communities that we serve, which are predominantly low to moderate-income communities.

Cameron Madill:
Awesome. Thank you. That is incredible growth. I’ve seen it grow maybe anecdotally, but that’s incredible to hear the numbers from 70 to 480. I know that in the various talks that you give, you talk about credit unions as a critical stakeholder in equitable community development, that it really can’t be done without these cooperative member-focused financial institutions. Can you talk a little bit about how credit unions are a stakeholder in community development, as well as who are some of the other stakeholders and how can they partner together to create the best outcomes for the people that they’re working on serving?

Chriselle Martinez:
Sure. I see credit unions as an opportunity to be a key stakeholder in a variety of different spaces that can enhance economic growth and development. It can enhance the conversations around health disparities. It can help advance educational opportunities. It can be a part of a table that can be convened to discuss larger issues that either a state or a community is trying to tackle. And so, I see a credit union as an opportunity, or a CDFI as an opportunity to have a little bit more flexibility around what financing and what financial inclusion means to a particular approach, and that can be in any sector.

So, I think, having a credit union at the table to carry forward those conversations continues the opportunity to think outside the box, to create some new lanes of access when it comes to financial inclusion, and to also create a synergy of trust building and access, which a lot of times, I think, we get into conversations that move faster than those opportunities of trust building, and setting the table, and setting a foundation. And, credit unions can really be a key conversationalist, I would say, in those spaces to think through ideas and to think through opportunities that may not have been thought of before. So, I see that as a value add.

Cameron Madill:
I love that. And I always think stories are so helpful to better understand things. Do you have maybe two or three examples of ways that credit unions have used their CDFI designation in funding to impact their communities?

Chriselle Martinez:
Yeah, absolutely. One example that I can give is very hyper-local for me. I reside in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And so, one of the credit unions that is a member of Inclusiv, also a CDFI, is Guadalupe Credit Union, and they’re located up in Northern New Mexico area. If you’re not familiar with New Mexico, the landscape is pretty, I would say, rural, and once you step outside of Albuquerque, you’re getting into some very rural communities. We have a lot of our native reservations that are located in the state of New Mexico. So, access to some of our communities is fairly challenging. I would say, Guadalupe Credit Union has been able to create a really dynamic way of pivoting towards community needs and to supporting their members with their CDFI designation. A lot of things have happened in the recent years around wildfires, and just our environment in general here in the state. Northern New Mexico struggles a lot with water rights issues as well.

And so, Guadalupe has been one of those key stakeholders at the table surrounding conversations that have statewide impact when it comes to accessing federal dollars from their CDFI designation and putting back that into programming such as lending, being able to create zero APR loans for emergency response needs, being able to be an advocate for the state at a national level, and bring some of that work forward. So, I think they’ve also been able to do a lot of campaigns that help them result in member growth, because of the different types of lending opportunities that they could have for emergency response and for communities that may not be able to have that with other financial institutions.
Another example that I can provide is River City Credit Union, and they’re located in San Antonio, Texas. And River City is a mid-size credit union, I would say, that is located in the heart of San Antonio. And a lot of their work is in collaboration with the Mexican Consulate and working with their undocumented communities, working with their county to provide a resource such as a branch location in a financial desert, or a location we would consider to be a financial desert.

I see only these two examples that I’m providing, but hundreds of these conversations, and these narratives, and these stories that are being captured of where the largest impact is on what happens to the member at the end of the day, that individual that’s going home, that runs the small business, it may be in some type of emergency situation, that student that doesn’t have access to food or funding. Those stories are extremely highlighted amongst these two credit unions, where they’re seeing that impact and can really provide those individual descriptions of how that impact stretches all the way down to the actual person that receives those funds, so.

Kerala Taylor:
Great. And Chriselle, you touched on this a little bit, talking about Guadalupe. But, as a marketer, one thing I always think about is, with them, what’s in it for me? And that’s something we always have to keep in mind. Your examples provide… They’re wonderful stories about how CDFIs can benefit communities. But, what would you say is the business case for CDFI certification? What benefits does it offer the credit union itself?

Chriselle Martinez:
Sure. So, one of the things that I think is… And there’s a couple that I think I can address here. As I mentioned, the growth in certification, the certification brand is something that is now, I think, appealing for credit unions in this space because of the opportunity to leverage additional funding when you have a CDFI certification. We see a lot of states that are now looking towards their leagues and their associations to really lobby for state funding for CDFI designated financial institutions. So, I think, the business case overall is the opportunity for advancing access of those additional dollars, which in the credit union environment, we know that deposits drive the majority of asset building, the majority of investment within the credit union space, and we are the holders of those member dollars that are member owned, we’re cooperative.

So I think that there is a piece of the branding piece that has this ripple effect within the environments that they’re serving and within all of the different partnerships that they hold as a credit union. The other thing that I think about is the data collection opportunity. Many of times we talk about impact of CDFI and the work that CDFI does, but it’s very hard to put numbers to some of those impact stories. And, with CDFI, A certified financial institution has an obligation to provide reporting to the CDFI fund, not just in a way of being able to check the box, but to continue to tell the, I would say, numeric story of the lending impact and the lending approach that a credit union could have with the capture of the data that’s required for those reporting obligations. And really, what that’s telling is a financial inclusion metric that’s giving a number to the impact in those stories that we as credit unions usually don’t capture within a core system.

So I think that that also helps to continue that narrative and continue that value, I would say, of the CDFI certification.
Another thing that I think of is technical and financial assistance grants that are offered by the CDFI fund, which at baseline provides the opportunity to create loan loss reserves programs, or to continue funding programs that are a service or a product to a member that may not be sustained for a significant amount of time. A credit union may be able to stretch those dollars further by gaining a technical assistance or financial assistance grant. So ultimately, I think there is a deeper impact within the community that a CDFI could have through obtaining the CDFI certification and thinking through how that certification leverages additional funding, creates a different strategy for the credit union, creates some additional benchmarks in their lending approaches, and a lot of those go down to a baseline of target markets, which is a little bit more of a technical term of the CDFI fund. But, thinking about those under-invested communities or communities that are historically under-banked and how they can create some approaches to serving those communities with that CDFI certification.

Kerala Taylor:
And with all those benefits that seem pretty compelling to me, why aren’t all credit unions applying for CDFI certification? Or, put another way, what makes a credit union a good fit for that certification, and maybe what types of credit unions probably shouldn’t pursue it?

Chriselle Martinez:
This question I find a lot of value to because we encourage all credit unions to find out if they are eligible. And, taking the first step, I think a lot of times, just even in the years that I’ve been with Inclusiv, the conversations around members, there is some nervousness around taking that first step, understanding further into CDFI, because a lot of times, CDFI is not something that is a plug and play into any type of financial institution. It has to be sought out. It has to be analyzed. Data has to be analyzed. And then it has to be maintained over time. And that is a pretty heavy lift for a financial institution that may have had a particular approach to how they’re doing their lending activity and may not be at a place to strategize or quickly make a change based off of a result of an eligibility analysis.

But we love to encourage all credit unions to meet with us, talk with us, have the conversation around what does eligibility look like for that credit union. We know also that there’s a significant number of credit unions that may never become CDFI certified. We like to give the opportunity to still run loan data so that way we can see maybe where are some underserved communities in their service area that can be included in some of the strategies going forward. So, it’s not necessarily just a conversation around, “Are you eligible? Or are you not? Do we submit the application? Do we not?” It’s more around, “Let’s look at your lending data and figure out if you’re not eligible for CDFI certification, how do you continue to scale the work that you’re doing in community development work? How do you continue to stretch being a CDCU, and what do these metrics mean to you around financial inclusion?”

I hope that with every credit union that decides to figure out or find out if they can be eligible for CDFI certification, that they see the opportunity of financial inclusion and what that approach means around this whole system of CDFI.

Kerala Taylor:
And you mentioned CDCU, could you just explain that a bit for our audience and what the-

Chriselle Martinez:
Yes, I apologize. I try to stay away from acronyms and I know there’s so many. A CDCU is a community development credit union. So, at Inclusiv, our work is not only particularly in the lane of CDFI work, it is around credit unions that are highly invested in community development work and what that means around financial inclusion.

Cameron Madill:
Thanks for that share around, who’s a good fit and who’s not, Chriselle. I’m such a fan, we’re such a fan of that notion with measuring impact of just taking the first step. I tell people this all the time in for-profit businesses as a certified B corporation at PixelSpoke of, “Hey, just take the assessment and just see. Even if you’re not going to qualify, you’re going to learn some things you never would’ve thought of.” And I know for us it’s so meaningful, because what are we, probably eight, nine years into our B corporation journey. Today we’re owned, we have 10 of our 17 employees are owners of the company. And that idea never would’ve come to fruition without really starting that whole process of… As you said, it’s a different version, but it’s a pretty heavy lift too. But it just opened up all these opportunities and questions, which I think is so powerful.

So, you’re preaching to the choir. Thank you for that great answer. So there was one thing that was super intriguing to me, I wanted to pick your brain about, that it looks like the California budget has $50 million for a state level CDFI fund. And, I was like, “That’s intriguing. I don’t know anything about that.” Can you enlighten our audience about that and maybe do see that being a trend that will go to other states?

Chriselle Martinez:
Yeah, California, Nevada League, California, they are embarking on an adventure of standing up their state level CDFI fund. And, it has been some really great conversations around the purpose, the meaning of the fund within the state. And now, I think they are at a place of really trying to identify where those funds are going to go and what is going to have the largest scale impact. New York State was the first state to create a CDFI fund, which they had awarded $25 million in funding in 2022, and that’s going to be dispersed over several years. Michigan has also recently created a state CDFI fund in 2022 and is awarding 75 million to eligible CDFIs within their state. In 2021, Virginia had created a fund, Virginia CDFIs fund that will launch with $10 million. So they haven’t allocated those funds yet, but that is still in progress.

So we are seeing this trend that states are starting to advocate, or have been doing some of this advocacy work that is now resulting in states providing their own funding into a CDFI fund pot for CDFIs to access at the state level. And, I think, the way that I see it is this additional deeper level of impact that happens at the state level, because you can gather the funds at the federal level, administer those funds in the way that need to be appropriated, where the states can really identify an impact approach on something very unique, very, I would say, special to their state. I think about California and I think about a lot of the environmental challenges that they see, and we witness it over and over more immensely every year, where they’re dealing with wildfires, or flooding, or communities are just really being wiped out due to just the environment there.

And so, I think, with those state level funds, they’re able to think through, “What can be our approach to deploy funds quickly at the state level? Get it directly in the hands of those that need it immediately.” We know that CDFI credit unions are in the CDFI industry, the largest number of asset total of the entire CDFI industry combined, as well as serve more people than the entire CDFI industry combined. So when you think about that, how the dollars can be deployed at such a widespread range in such a very quick way is pretty remarkable. During the pandemic, we saw credit unions step in when we saw other financial institutions stepping out of communities. And so, I think that credit unions have the opportunity to be a very key stakeholder, be at the table in those conversations, and to deploy some of those funds quickly.

Cameron Madill:
I love the innovation, and you’re absolutely right. I mean, the local context, I have a brother-in-law who’s a volunteer firefighter in California. And actually up here, we’re in Portland, Oregon, or at least I am, Kerala and I are. And we have a lot of forest fires too. But, the context is so different in every state. And one thing I love, I just wanted to remark on Chriselle, is I’ve always been a believer… I think there’s a science concept for this that the most interesting things happen at the fringes, the transitional points, water to shore, forest to wetland, or whatever. And, it seems like on a conceptual level, CDFI is a tool as you keep repeating for credit unions to get a seat at a table for a larger collaborative issue that’s bigger than any institution. And that’s really powerful and I think that’s where a lot of the innovation happens.

So anyway, I just wanted to share that. And, one of the things that was super exciting when I was prepping for the podcast was I learned that you have a crystal ball, Chriselle. So, we’re going to ask you to pull that crystal ball out and let us know what do you hope the credit union movement will look like 5 to 10 years from now?

Chriselle Martinez:
Oh, well, let’s get my crystal ball out here. I think that in the next 5 to 10 years, what we’re looking at, and what we are really diving deeper into with our work at Inclusiv, with our work in CDFI is to see our minority depository institutions and low-income designated credit unions have a remarkable amount of support to flourish. I think, it’s been a little disheartening that we’ve seen some of our MDIs smaller credit unions that are either going into a merger with a different credit union as a result of whatever the circumstances may be, or have just pretty much dissolved. We’re seeing them just disappear, which I think is very hard because our smaller and MDI credit unions are the heartbeat, I would say, of the credit union movement. They are the ones that are consistently in the trenches with their members helping to serve their members on a daily basis in a way that is, I would say, far surpassed the uniqueness of how a member with an emergency or a member that needs a very fast solution can be served. And that flexibility is pretty immense.

So, I would like to see in the next 5 to 10 years, the movement of preservation for our MDIs and for our smaller credit unions, and where we gather or where we can get that support to make sure that that is front of mind and at the forefront of conversations. I’d love to see that growing number of CDFI certification continue to scale. We know that with the changes right now, the CDFI fund is currently in a blackout period. They are not accepting any new applications, and we commend the CDFI fund for taking a pause to extend their blackout period. So that way they’re really capturing some of the comments and feedback that was provided to them by the industry and by CDFIs in general, we want to see the continued growth and scale of credit unions that are thinking about CDFI certification and becoming certified.

Our advocacy in that area in particular, we’d love to see a fund the fund movement. We want to see the CDFI fund permanently funded. And, that those dollars are consistently coming into the CDFI fund and administered out either through the financial assistance, technical assistance CDFI programs, and hopefully with that can have some results in some equitable grant making programs for CDFI. We know that credit unions within the CDFI industry, they only receive, I would say, less than 2% of the CDFI funds that are administered through grants and through the CDFI fund. So we’d love to be able to have a place at the table and a conversation around, what is an equitable approach for all CDFIs that are certified and what is a good program, an equitable program that could be stood up that may particularly look at credit unions and support credit unions in their certification?

Cameron Madill:
I love it. Well, if 2020 taught me anything, it’s that my crystal ball is opaque and crack. So, I’m glad yours is still working. That was a beautiful vision. I’d love to pivot to just some rapid fire questions so we can get to know you a little bit better. So Chriselle, what’s your favorite meal?

Chriselle Martinez:
Oh, well, okay. So, I’m from New Mexico. I’m originally from California. I live in New Mexico. But, our famous plate here in New Mexico is probably Mexican food, a little bit of New Mexican infusion. But, our wonderful question that we get all the time is, do you like red or green? And that’s for red or green chili. And, if you’re a New Mexican, you’ll know that Christmas is an answer. We enjoy Christmas all year round, because that means we like both red and green chili. So, yeah, I love New Mexican food and I love Mexican food. And red and green chili would be my answer for that one.

Cameron Madill:
I love it. Christmas year round. If you could have dinner with one historical person, probably with Christmas food, who would that be?

Chriselle Martinez:
Oh, wow. I would have to say, it would probably be for me, Billie Holiday, she’s a famous jazz writer, singer, and also had, I think, just a lot of challenges in her life. And so I think, she was an extremely influential woman, woman of color. And so, I think if I could have an evening of conversation about her story just to understand her story more, I was introduced to her by my father by just a CD. He was like, “You need to listen to this.” And, I’ve always loved her music, adored her voice. And, have more recently learned the challenges in her life that she really endured by a lot of the stories that we hear of in our own environment within credit unions. She was caught up in a lot of historically redlined communities within the east coast, particularly in New York area, and just had a really challenged life. So, I would love to be in the space to have a conversation with her.

Cameron Madill:
Love that, Lady Day. I will join you for that dinner. I used to be a jazz musician, and for anyone else out there who’s into jazz, you might like this recommendation, Chriselle, there’s an amazing relatively new book called Dangerous Rhythms, which is a history of the intersection of the mob and jazz music, and it is fascinating. But I digress, this is not my interview of myself. All right, Chriselle, if you have a different career, you’ve done a lot of amazing things, but just different life path, you turned left instead of right, what would you be doing?

Chriselle Martinez:
Well, I’ve always really loved the blend of education. My degree, this is another pinpoint in my life, but my PhD is in counseling, which for me has been the place where I’ve met people and the love of working with people and serving people. And so, I think, my next adventure would probably be somewhere either thinking in the political area, thinking in teaching within higher education, and just being a thought partner around what are some other ways to mobilize our communities. So I think that that a dip back into higher education and move forward into some political arenas might be a good next adventure, but who knows?

Cameron Madill:
Sounds great. And, last question on this vein, what’s a place you’d like to visit that you’d never visited before?

Chriselle Martinez:
I’ve been to Alaska before, during the summertime. And I’ve always wanted to see the Northern Lights. So, Alaska in the wintertime, somewhere up in the northern hemisphere in the wintertime might be a great place to adventure to. Yeah.

Cameron Madill:
Sounds amazing. Bring a warm coat. All right.

Chriselle Martinez:
Yeah.

Cameron Madill:
Well, let’s do our final take. Chriselle, thank you so much for joining us. I’d love to just give you a chance to either reiterate anything that is particularly important for our audience, or is there anything you didn’t get to that you wanted to leave our audience with?

Chriselle Martinez:
Yeah. I think, when I started at Inclusiv, one thing that I remember, our CEO, during my interview, Kathy Mahon, speaking to that has really resonated and sat with me and honestly has pushed me in the direction of my work on a daily basis. And, I think about it and try and really reinforce that in conversations with our members and with credit unions. And, the point is, is that, I feel that it is our responsibility in this industry to ensure that everyone has access to fair and responsible financial services, financial services, financial products, and that we are approaching things in a very equitable way when we’re talking about our members, the people that we serve, and the communities that we serve.

And so, I really try and carry that forward and want to leave people with that thought because I feel like that is a part of the pulse of the credit union movement. I’ve had the happiness, the willingness, and the privilege really to be able to continue the opportunity of working within the credit union movement and moving forward the direction of financial inclusion and the advancement of financial inclusion in this space. So, I really just want to challenge people to join us, join us in the movement, join us in the conversation, and let’s continue working towards that financial access for all.

Kerala Taylor:
… Well, that was beautifully said, Chriselle. I think we might have momentarily lost Cameron, his internet connection stalled. But I know he would join me in saying thank you so much for joining us and for offering all your wonderful insights. And hope you have a great rest of your day.

Chriselle Martinez:
Thank you all so much. Have a good day.

Cameron Madill:
All right, folks, thanks so much for joining us for another great episode. I want to quick share some of my key takeaways. So the first one was just how Chriselle explained CDFI as at its core, this federally funded program that helps financial institutions magnify their community development efforts. And that what that fundamentally means is it’s a way to get a seat at the table to address the big issues of our day with other key stakeholders, including health disparities, access to finance, education gaps, and more. Next was that, I was surprised, I know there’s been a lot of growth, but just how dramatic the growth has been since the great recession from about 70 CDFIs in 2008 to almost 500 today. And I appreciated the great examples to check out of Guadalupe Credit Union and River City Credit Union of two credit unions that are really maximizing the value and impact of their CDFI status.

I always appreciate knowing the business case for how things work, because ultimately we know that’s what makes the world go round if we can really get buy-in at a business level. And, that it’s both the opportunity to of course get access to more funds, to pursue members you might not be able to serve right now, but also to open up a new strategic area of focus. And if strategy is all about focus, then this is a great thing, because focus is required to get a CDFI grant. And also, that CDFI grants can help you to build technical expertise as an organization. And Chriselle talked about how really everyone is a good fit for CDFI and that she really encourages people to just dip their toe in the water, start the journey, and who knows where you will end up, because you might not end up as a fully fledged CDFI, but it will deepen your impact and sharpen your differentiation and organizational strategy from what you learned.

I thought it was really intriguing that state funds are being launched to make CDFI even more flexible to local conditions and something for everyone to keep an eye on. And lastly, I love Chriselle’s big dream, a fund to fund effort to make CDFI funding permanent, having clear components focus on helping credit unions maximize their impact and get more from those funds. I love this phrase, create a remarkable amount of support for smaller minority depositor and low-income credit unions so that they can really stay as the heartbeat of community development. And, as her closing take said, the big dream, maybe even beyond that, at just the deepest level of the why behind credit unions, that we all have a responsibility to ensure that all Americans have fair access to financial services. Well said. All right. Thank you all for joining us today for another great episode. Until the next time, I wish you the best of luck in making your credit union remarkable.