Emotions & Finances: Empowering Credit Unions to Create Happy Members

We think of finance as a science, not an art. But the truth is, when it comes to our personal finances, money is about so much more than numbers.

World-renowned financial wellness expert Manisha Thakor joins us to talk about how our emotions affect our financial decisions, what we can learn about finance from Weight Watchers, and what opportunities she sees for credit unions to leverage our emotional connection to money to build more authentic relationships with their members.

Manisha Thakor is the co-author of two critically acclaimed personal finance books: On My Own Two Feet and Get Financially Naked. Her work has been featured on CNN, The Rachael Ray Show, The Wall Street Journal, Women’s Health, Forbes, The New York Times, USA Today, and more.

Key Takeaways

1. What most human beings want at the end of the day are simplicity, small joys, and financial independence.
2. Credit union marketing efforts should center around stories about real people with real problems getting real solutions from their credit unions.
3. Education and behavior change are really hard to connect. Financial education efforts will be vastly more successful if we can take a page from Weight Watchers and create a tribe that celebrates the little wins.

 

Read the transcript here:

Cameron:
Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Remarkable Credit Union Podcast. We created our podcast to help credit union leaders think outside of the box about marketing strategy, technology, and community impact. Every episode, we bring on expert guests from inside and outside of the industry for conversations about innovation. Our goal is to challenge your preconceptions about business as usual and provide you with actionable takeaways that you can use to grow your membership, improve the financial health of your cooperative, and magnify the positive impact in your community.

Cameron:
Today’s big question, how can we use our emotional connection to money to empower credit unions to create happy members, financial resilience, and ethical business growth? I’m really excited to welcome to our show Manisha Thakor. She’s a world-renowned expert on financial wisdom, a Harvard MBA, and someone who is specialized in combining emotional intelligence with a deep knowledge of how finances work to help especially women achieve greater financial health.

Cameron:
Manisha has been featured on CNN, Rachael Ray, The Wall Street Journal, Women’s Health, Forbes, The New York Times, USA Today, and many more. Manisha also has a robust give-back effort, and I’ve heard her described for all of the good work that she does in the community as the best-kept secret in all of Portland, Oregon. Manisha, thanks for joining us.

Manisha Thakor:
Cameron, thank you so much for having me.

Cameron:
I think it’s really interesting how you talk about the importance of redefining our relationship to money and creating lives that are in alignment with our deepest values. And that’s your concept, MoneyZen, and I’d love it if you could talk a little more about what do you mean by this MoneyZen concept and why do you think it’s important.

Manisha Thakor:
So what I mean by it is that you have a sense of calm and confidence and clarity around your money, and the way you’re spending your money and your time are in alignment with what matters most to you in life. And the backstory behind it … I had spent my junior year abroad at Oxford, and on the plane back, I was reflecting on what did I learn. And I drew this triangle on like a scrap piece of paper. And at the top, I wrote simplicity, and in the lower left-hand corner, I wrote small joys. And in the lower right-hand corner, I wrote financial independence.

Manisha Thakor:
And I thought, “That’s what I want from life. I want a life of simplicity, small joys, and financial independence, the ability to appreciate the first two without having to stress about the third.” And so I think that … and that was back in 1991 … was the original underpinning of MoneyZen. But to me, what it’s come to mean, as I’ve used the phrase more and more and it’s really at the heart of all my work, is the degree to which, for so many people, there is a huge chasm between money and any feeling of Zen and wanting to help bridge that so it doesn’t need to be the case.

Cameron:
And you have a phrase I saw you use several places that was … I think it was something like we don’t need more money knowledge. We need more money wisdom. Did I get that right?

Manisha Thakor:
Yeah. So we’re drowning in knowledge, and we are starved for wisdom. And I feel like that’s true in absolutely every area of life. I’m trying to learn piano again at age 49 and way easier to learn at age nine, not simply because your brain is more limber, but because you had less choices when you were both nine years old. Now you have online, and your options to learn make your head spin.

Manisha Thakor:
And with personal finance, I mean, like if you google “get out of debt,” god help you. I mean, how do you even just pick between the various things swimming at you? And so what I’ve noticed is all the right information is out there in order for a person to financially educate themselves, but I don’t know anybody who can find it and put it in the right order and teach it to themselves without some kind of guidance or filter, and so ergo my thinking that we are drowning in information and starving for wisdom.

Cameron:
I love that phrase. I probably think of myself as financially knowledgeable, but I thought, “Do I think of myself as financially wise? No.” I was thinking, “How many people do I know who would say that?” So I love that framing. Another phrase I heard your comment of you’re fond of saying, no BLTs. And so I wonder if you could just explain that concept because it cracks me up.

Manisha Thakor:
Yeah. So I have always struggled with my weight, always. And now that the internet caches all of these images of you, if anybody googles me under image, you can like … I’ve had people to be like, “Were you pregnant?” I’m like, “No, I was just fat.”

Manisha Thakor:
And so in Weight Watchers, one of the many things that I have tried to do to stay somewhat looking like a modicum of humanity, they have a phrase, no BLTs. No bites, looks, or tastes. And I find that people leak money constantly, and we talk about it in a really judgy way, usually around coffee, which is, to me, sacrosanct. I work on a location-independent basis, so I do a lot of my work in coffee houses. And I will buy a $5 macchiato, which is technically three ounces of liquid, and I will sit there for three hours. And so I’m getting a really good ROI on that.

Manisha Thakor:
But many of us are leaking money in other ways, and we’re just not realizing it. And so when people think about budgeting or getting their money in order by taking a look first at the BLTs, they’re often amazed at how much they’re able to collect and back into the piggy bank and not lose a ton of joy in the process.

Cameron:
Great phrase. Another thing … and we’ve had a lot of interesting conversations here at PixelSpoke about this. I was impressed to see that you really focus your financial education efforts on women. And I’m curious, why is that important to you, and what do you think needs to change when it comes to how our society typically engages women in conversations about money? Because as I think we all know, the financial industries tend to be heavily dominated by men and male ways of thinking.

Manisha Thakor:
So the first reason is that women … We just have less wiggle room to get it wrong because we still earn less the male dollar. White women, depending on the methodology, we can call it $0.77 to $0.82 on the dollar, and black and Latino women, the numbers are dramatically lower on the male dollar. Then on top of it, the average woman spends, depending on the study, 11 to 12 years more out of the paid workforce than men, caring for children and increasingly elderly parents. And then we live longer, so we need more money to support us through our life. But we are less for less time. And so we are walking a tightrope, and if we can learn the good habits in our 20s and 30s, it can make a life-altering decision, although at any age, it’s good to learn them. And so that’s the reason why I am so passionate about helping women.

Manisha Thakor:
I also believe that having money gives anybody … but in particular, it gives women voices and choices to get out of relationships that aren’t working for them, situations, jobs. And one of the other things I started to think more about on a global basis is that the microlending studies on ROIs of lending money to women versus men are consistently higher for women because it turns out when women make a profit in the vast majority of these developing countries … Well, when men make a profit, they tend to invest in alcohol-

Cameron:
And drinking, yeah. Drink at the bar.

Manisha Thakor:
… tobacco, and other women. And when women make the profit, they invest in their families and the communities, and so there’s a whole range. The last reason I really got passionate about this is my mom … bra-burning feminist. My dad [inaudible 00:07:38] work in finance. And so I was brought up in a very nontraditional background for somebody who’s half Indian. I was treated like I was gender neutral, and it changed my life because I never felt like I couldn’t speak the language of finance because it was spoken with me and my brother equally growing up. And I realized how many women do not feel a part of the conversation because so many of the analogies and the terms and the acronyms … Honestly, it’s like male speak.

Cameron:
Yeah, I have a friend who runs a car repair shop. And he’s worked really hard at this, but he’s talked about kind of how his eyes have been opened, how it’s just a world that is on average kind of hostile and unwelcoming to women. I think it’s really interesting that that’s true in finance.

Cameron:
And I love the microfinance example. One of the things I’m really proud of here at PixelSpoke is one of our donations we always do is to keep … We’ve been doing this since 2009. We’ve made, I think, just under 9,000 microloans all around the world. And I remember reading Muhammad Yunus’s book [inaudible 00:08:39] the Nobel prize, and I thought it was such an amazing concept. And one of things he said there was, he said, “This just didn’t work until we stopped lending to men.” And I thought as a man, I was like, “Well, that’s kind of depressing, but also kind of eyeopening and, I think, probably an example of how society really undervalues women and the contributions they make.”

Manisha Thakor:
Well, and one of my favorite gifts at the holiday season is to give Kiva gift cards to other women and have them just keep reinvesting and seeing what’s happening. It’s literally the gift that keeps on giving in all directions.

Cameron:
Isn’t it amazing? Yeah. I love their programs. So when it comes to the credit union space, which has … I mean, really, the origins of credit unions are of people who are underserved coming together and helping themselves because the dominant systems won’t give them a fair shake. And now we’re many decades later and so many things have evolved. Where do you see untapped opportunities around financial wellness? Because it feels like we’re in a society that’s just crying out for solutions.

Manisha Thakor:
Yeah. Well, I think there are a couple of different ways to slice it. One is, maybe you could call it demographically or ethnically, and then the other would be in a psychographic manner. And if I think demographically, especially coming from … My dad came here from India with a proverbial a hundred bucks and the suitcase. And I think about what, especially in current times, so many people are going through as they come to this country, and I feel like there is a very large opportunity to help people for whom arriving in America, however it happened, have as many opportunities as they possibly can. And so that’s the very first thing that just jumps to my mind so loudly.

Manisha Thakor:
The other thing is something you and I were talking about before the show started, the term “side gigs.” Increasingly more and more, people have jobs and side gigs, and I feel like people with side gigs are underserved when it comes to financial guidance and even getting loans. And just any form of financial services needs are not as robust for side giggers or freelancers.

Manisha Thakor:
And then I actually am starting to wonder if credit unions aren’t the last big hope for helping women because the large corporations have tried and tried. And my assessment of what the big behemoth companies have done is pink it and shrink it. It’s made no dent, and if anything, it’s been insulting.

Cameron:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Do you have any ideas of what credit unions could do to help women?

Manisha Thakor:
Well, no, I mean, I feel like there’s a couple of different things. I actually think podcasting is an incredibly powerful mechanism right now. I think there’s two wild wests of messaging, podcasting and YouTube. And I think the more images and stories of real women with real problems getting real solutions by working with their local credit union can get out there, that’s what people need. They need hope and inspiration and not from an advertisement. They need it. We remember things from story. We connect from humanity, and video and audio are two really wonderful ways to do that. And authenticity is such an overused buzzword, but authenticity has the greatest opportunity of shining through in that manner versus advertising or creating slogans or numerical targets to reach.

Cameron:
Yeah. Great. So one of the things I loved … Manisha has a phenomenal kind of … speaking of YouTube … YouTube kind of media clip of just Rachael Ray and Dr. Drew and all these great folks. And one of the things I loved was when I think of financial discussions, the expert comes on, and you ask the expert a question. The expert says, “Hmm.” And they think deeply, and they say something very serious and profound.

Cameron:
In almost every response, you had this kind of, I guess, emotionally strong response of, “I love this question,” or “This is such an intensely personal thing.” And to me, there’s this crazy disconnect between money being maybe the most emotional topic, right? I’m sure you saw the Atlantic article many years ago that said financial impotence is actually even more taboo than sexual impotence, right?

Manisha Thakor:
Yes. Yes.

Cameron:
So it’s so emotional, but the financial services industry always just seems so kind of stale and bland and gigantic disclaimers and generic stock photo people. So I know this is one of your big areas of expertise, and I’d love to know how can we better use the power of this emotional connection to ethically market financial products and services.

Manisha Thakor:
So I just think money is almost never about money. And you bring up the shows. It was one of the things … When I was on Rachael Ray, I was helping a couple, and the wife was literally feeding a family of four on $100 a week. It was shocking, and she and her husband are having some tension. And finally, I couldn’t stop myself. I blurted out, “It’s not about the money, Dawn and Chris. It’s not.” And the whole audience erupted. It was like I had burst a balloon, and you could just feel everyone joining in that moment like, “Yeah, it’s not. You’re describing my house, too.”

Manisha Thakor:
And so I think we need to tap into that, and basically, the problem is there’s a huge taboo around talking about it at a truly a deep, human, yucky, mucky level. And there’s a woman named Kathleen Burns Kingsbury, and she has written a wonderful book called Breaking Money Silence … is one of the things that I think anyone in financial services in a leadership role should read that book and think how can we use those tools. She’s a psychologist, and she’s focused on the interaction of money and psychology to break down those taboos amongst our client base.

Cameron:
Hmm, so interesting. I mean, I guess I also told you before the show how a murmur, my wife and I were reading John Gottman, this famous marriage relationship expert who is super evidence-based and has all this fascinating content. And it was like, there’s the five things that every couple fights about that makes up like 99% of all fights. And I think it was like kids, career, sex, money, and I’m probably forgetting one. And I remember, we were kind of like, “Oh, we do pretty well. We’ve talked about it. We have very similar philosophies.” And pride goeth before the fall. I think of our big fights, I bet a third of them are about money. And they just seem to come out of left field. And it’s like, everything’s fine and then …

Cameron:
So I love this recommendation, Breaking Money Silence. Is that part of the answer, that the financial services industry should just recognize it and train that this is inherently an emotional business, not a purely sort of rational … I don’t know. [crosstalk 00:15:45].

Manisha Thakor:
Yeah, I totally get what … In fact, the industry is starting, and it’s a small group of people really at the center of this. George Kinder started it all with the Kinder Institute work, and he has an iconic book and three key questions people should ask. He’s the grandfather of the emotional connection with money. And Vicki Robin, if you have not read her book, Your Money or Your Life, it just was rereleased in 2018.

Manisha Thakor:
That cadre of thought leaders has come together with a couple of academic institutions, most notably Kansas State and there are now two different designations that are bubbling up, one a short form and one kind of longer program, more like the CFP, to become … the names haven’t quite finalized themselves yet, but … certified financial life planners where you have the skills of a CFA, CPA, CFP. But you also have been given this fourth skill of deep emotional training. And the programs don’t focus on the first parts because you have to have those credentials to get in. It’s all emotional. So I actually think that it’s got to become part of the training in the profession to really change because otherwise it’s considered like, “Well, I don’t want to go there. I’m not a therapist.”

Cameron:
We had a guest on the show a couple of years ago who was the CEO of a credit union in a small town in Washington. And one things that they do that that amazed me is every single employee … 100%, so like the IT guy. They all are certified financial coaches. I don’t know the exact designation, but the whole point was just to steep the entire culture in like the water that you’re swimming in.

Cameron:
So you said something that like left me … It was like a cliffhanger. I’ve read Vicki Robins, Your Money or Your Life. Great book. I’ve not read Breaking Money Silence, which I will now read. And you said George Kinder and three questions, and I was like, “What are the three questions?”

Manisha Thakor:
I know. I’m having a senior moment.

Cameron:
Okay, we’ll google it. [crosstalk 00:17:45].

Manisha Thakor:
I was just going to say, in his show notes, he’s got these famous three questions that are incredibly powerful. As I am approaching age 50, counting down 10 months, I’m already having pre-senior moments.

Cameron:
No worries. We will google it. So then another thing that really intrigued me as I was doing research on you was … I came across a clip where you’re working, and I can’t remember the show. And there’s a mother and a daughter there, and you just say, “Oh, I feel the love here. I want to acknowledge that. And then I want to talk about financial drunkenness and financial intervention.” I remember just going, “Whoa, this is not the normal conversation that someone has with someone.” So can you maybe just kind of quick share what you meant by that and also why you shared it that way versus something a little more clinical? I mean, it just felt very emotional. Yeah.

Manisha Thakor:
So I do these wide range of shows from traditional things like CNN and CNBC where you don’t have quite the latitude. And this happened to be on Dr. Drew. And it was a mom and a daughter, and the daughter was engaging in unbelievable levels of spending. I call it adult economic outpatient care from Mom. And it was hurting Mom’s retirement, and the daughter had become completely dependent and expectant on receiving it and not grateful at all.

Manisha Thakor:
And so I tried to run the numbers like, “Okay, Daughter, if you were to have to take a job that would give you as much money after taxes to spend as you’re getting from your mom, this is how much you’d have to earn.” And it was something like $120,000 and she was earning like $32,000. And so I ran through the math. It was like glazed eyes. I could just see Daughter didn’t get it, and Mom felt like, “I’m not a good mom if I don’t do it.”

Manisha Thakor:
And I just thought, “Okay, the numbers aren’t meaning anything.”

Cameron:
Yeah, the spreadsheet is not making a meaningful [crosstalk 00:19:37].

Manisha Thakor:
It’s not changing behavior. And suddenly just hit me like, oh my gosh, if that were alcohol, if your daughter were driving drunk, would you keep giving her more alcohol and letting her go out night after night? And that was like the aha moment for all of us, was the daughter was driving financially drunk. The mom was providing the alcohol.

Cameron:
Giving her the keys. Yeah.

Manisha Thakor:
It was going to kill her, giving her the keys, and we needed an intervention. And that goes to your earlier point. How do we bring in emotion? I mean, I think money involves life situations, and we don’t always need to talk … We need to know the numbers, but there can be other ways to explain a scenario that can complement the numbers.

Cameron:
So you’ve got two books you’ve written. The first one is called on My Own Two Feet, and subtitle is A Modern Girl’s Guide to Personal Finance, which I am super interested. However, selfishly, I just got married, and I noticed your second book …

Manisha Thakor:
Congratulations.

Cameron:
Yeah, thank you. Thank you … is called Get Financially Naked. And so I wanted to read a line here. “Study after study shows that money is one of the top causes of fights in marriages.” Aha, as I just said. “Divorce in general, life stress …” and then sort of goes on. “When was the last time you had someone ask if you were financially compatible with your partner?” I’ve shared a little bit about how I’ve learned we are actually financially compatible, I think, but it’s still really hard. Can you maybe tell us a little bit about that and maybe any advice you’ve got for me personally to have a happier and more fulfilling marriage?

Manisha Thakor:
The subtitle of the book is How to Talk Money with Your Honey.

Cameron:
That’s right. That’s right.

Manisha Thakor:
I find that every single time I say, “How to talk money with your honey,” people laugh, and they laugh because it’s so real. None of us can do it well. And I mean, I don’t think there’s a particular art to it that you can master the way Simone Biles can pick a gymnastics move and just hone it and hone it. I think the thing is just to acknowledge that it is the gigantic green elephant in bedrooms across America and that if you trust each other enough to have fallen in love, then trust each other enough to bring up this topic.

Manisha Thakor:
And we’re amicably divorced. Married to a wonderful man. He and I had dramatically different viewpoints on money. And I knew it going in, but I thought I could change them, those famous last words. And that’s why, for me, it’s a big deal to make sure people are thinking about whether or not you’re financially compatible.

Manisha Thakor:
But as you point out, even when you are financially compatible, my boyfriend and I both believe in being debt free. We both are very frugal. We both live very simple lives. But I do something that drives him crazy, which is that when I’m done with something, I bring it to Goodwill, and he sells it on Craigslist. And my feeling is like, “No, it should just go back into the general good juju.” And his feeling is like, “That’s wasteful. You should sell it on Craigslist and then maybe give it to [crosstalk 00:22:30].”

Cameron:
A charity or something. Yeah, yeah.

Manisha Thakor:
[crosstalk 00:22:32] money. So it’s funny how it crops in, and you can learn a lot from each other if you open up to the conversation. But most of us cling to our financial positions so strongly, which pulls us apart in our relationships and also keeps us from learning new ways to think about money.

Manisha Thakor:
So I think my biggest piece of advice is A, think goodness that you identified that you were not polar financial opposites. I don’t recommend that, but not to fight the fact that there will be differences and instead to be curious about it, about what you can learn. Rethink why you think the way you think. Maybe you won’t make any changes on how you think, but you’ll understand each other better. And what I find is it brings people closer. I’ve never had somebody regret having gone deep on the financial fissure if they did it lovingly because it really does bring you closer than virtually almost any other conversation.

Cameron:
Yeah, it’s such a, well, as you said, profoundly emotional topic. I think from our brief chat before the show, my sense is we might both be recovering high achiever, perfectionist. And I remember one thing. I’m thinking about this with regards to my wife. One thing my dad once told me, he said, “Well, it’s really simple. You can either get better, or you can lower your expectations.” I’ve never been a fan of lowering my expectations, but I’m like, “Yeah, actually, I think we are just going to fight about money sometimes, and it’s not going to be perfect.” And actually … Go ahead.

Manisha Thakor:
I think that is the magic sauce, is being curious. While you can’t prevent … You’re not going to have harmony all the time, but it’s how you approach the harmony. Just harmony and curiosity, I think, is the key.

Cameron:
Great point. Yeah. It’s a learning opportunity versus a proof that you’re not perfect, which I learned a while ago. So I quickly googled George Kinder, three questions. So tell me what these are right.

Cameron:
The first one is, imagine you are financially secure, that you have enough money to take care of your needs now and in the future. How would you live your life? Would you change anything? Let yourself go. Don’t hold back on your dreams and describe a life that’s completely and richly yours. And the second … Is that right? You’re nodding. Okay, good.

Manisha Thakor:
Yeah.

Cameron:
These are fascinating. I haven’t seen them. The second one is, now imagine that you visit your doctor who tells you that you only have 5 to 10 years to live. Oh, all right. You won’t ever feel sick, but you will have no notice of the moment of your death. What will you do in the time you have remaining? Will you change your life and how will you do it? Note this question does not assume unlimited funds. All right, but I have enough to live.

Cameron:
Finally, imagine that your doctor shocked with the news you only have 24 hours to live. Notice your feelings arise as you confront your very real mortality. Ask yourself, what did you miss? Who did you not get to be? What did you not get to do? Interesting. So I can see how that really does connect you with the emotions, not just the spreadsheets and the compounding interest, which is important, right?

Manisha Thakor:
Well, and think about those questions being asked in financial services 20 years ago. I mean, that was pioneering that somebody would bring this up.

Cameron:
And even so, I don’t think I hardly ever hear these in my [crosstalk 00:25:21].

Manisha Thakor:
Today, right. Right.

Cameron:
So one thing I was really curious about is … As you know, our primary business is building websites for credit unions and social enterprises. And so naturally, for the credit unions, there’s lots of different sections of the websites, and we’ve noticed that financial education tools and resources tend to be under utilized. Sort of philosophically, we’re big promoters of the concept of financial wellness and financial education, but the analytics generally don’t look good.

Cameron:
And we’ve done a lot of additional digging, and there’s some research that … a lot of research, as I far as I understand it, I should say … You’re the expert, not me, but that the education in itself is also not that effective at truly changing behavior. So I’d love to know, why do you think if credit unions had these great resources on their site, they’re not getting used, one? And two, how could they more effectively educate their members and help them to make better choices to have happier, more holistic lives?

Manisha Thakor:
I think about this a lot because I’ve joined the board of the National Endowment for Financial Education, NiFi, which is the nation’s most strongly endowed and one of the longest-standing proponents for financial education, working collaboratively with organizations and schools and government entities across the country. And it is true that education does not always lead to a change in behavior. And it’s like this gigantic conundrum like, “Why, if I tell you that just saving a dollar a day will really make a difference in your life if you put it in a targeted index fund and never touch it again … and then you don’t do it.”

Manisha Thakor:
And again, I think it goes back to like why … It’s behavior change. And so a lot of the things that we discuss, maybe in the context of leadership or growing businesses, we’re not thinking about changing financial behaviors the same way we are thinking about changing other types of behaviors, even very commonly cited ones like changing your exercise or your eating habits.

Manisha Thakor:
And those are not one-and-done conversations, and I think a lot of the education is presented as, well, here are the facts, okay. Why aren’t you going to do it? And so we need something more around the education to link the education to the end outcome and provide some degree of either gamification to keep the attention or social contact. There needs to be some other human element that draws you from the knowledge to the actual implementation and the behavior change. And that’s what’s missing, and it’s exhausting, right, because you’re trying to run a credit union. And now you’re trying to think about how to create financial bingo so that people will actually do something with all the great information you are …

Manisha Thakor:
And I keep coming back to thinking that the most effective way is through story, audio and video. We see this all the time, how one iconic picture or 30 iconic seconds can go viral across the country. And I feel like it’s those moments that we want to show at the end of a lesson on the power of compounding, some human story. It’s the financial intervention and the financial intoxication model of trying to come up with something crisp that sits in somebody’s head that goes and takes the facts and turns them into motivation to engage in the behavior change. And so it’s not just credit unions. Schools say the same thing, and I mean, pretty much anyone who tries to implement financial literacy programs feels so frustrated that they’re not getting the transformation they’d hoped for.

Cameron:
I mean, it seems like, for example, that’s something that Dave Ramsey has done a good job of like … kind of turned it into a tribe.

Manisha Thakor:
It is a tribe. It’s a human … and people are cult-like and passionate about it because there are societal repercussions for falling off the bandwagon, and people will help you. And you don’t want to show up to the next class at Financial Peace University and admit that you-

Cameron:
Yeah. I guess like Weight Watchers as well or something.

Manisha Thakor:
Yeah, right.

Cameron:
That’s so interesting. I’m just reading a book right now called Bury the Chains about the abolition movement in England. It’s incredible. They say it was the first worldwide social justice movement where they banned the trafficking of slaves, and of course the theory, which was ultimately right … It took a while … was that if you stop the transportation and selling of slaves, then eventually, the practices will become eradicated, country by country. It took a long time, US, Brazil, Russia, so on.

Cameron:
But one of the things I learned was they said that they think the movement never would have really taken off if it wasn’t for this iconic … You may have seen it. It’s an iconic little penny-like thing. It’s very powerful. And it’s a slave kneeling in chains, and it says, “Am I not also a man and your brother?” with a question mark. And you see it, right? And it’s that sort of thing that I think that we can connect to the education about compounding interest, right?

Manisha Thakor:
That’s it. That’s it. I mean, there are probably 10, 15 key financial concepts that we need to teach. And with all the wonderful minds in the financial services industry, can we not come up with 10 or 15 of those images and share them?

Cameron:
Grab us. Grab us. All right, so I feel like I could talk to you all day, but I know I’ve got to land the plane. So a couple of quick things. On your personal website … It’s moneyzen.com. You have just a bunch of great tools on there, but there’s three in particular you said that can really help listeners on their journey to financial wellbeing. Can you tell us about them real quickly?

Manisha Thakor:
Sure. So the first is a link to True Wellth, W-E-L-L-T-H, which is a podcast that I have put together, and the intention of the podcast is to help people figure out how to more tightly align the way they spend their money and time with what matters most to them in life … and on iTunes and all the other usual places. And I take a lot of care with the show notes, and so you can go to moneyzen.com and click through on True Wellth there.

Manisha Thakor:
The second thing is that I work at an amazing firm called Brighton Jones, and we can help manage the money of virtually anyone. Once you’re out of debt and you’re in the mode of starting to start savings … or traditional business was for the high net-worth business. And now we’ve launched a new division where we can manage money for everyone, and you can access information about that on moneyzen.com.

Manisha Thakor:
And then the third thing that I like to mention is I do a monthly newsletter that you can sign up for, and I try and share the personal finance stories that I’ve come across that month that really grabbed me the most emotionally as I can. And over the years, people have said it’s like a nonfinancial financial newsletter that they really look forward to.

Cameron:
Yeah. I just signed myself in my wife up for it today. And then, I mean, I first heard about you because you spoke to a group of entrepreneurs here in Portland. I mentioned in the introduction that I was also introduced to you as the best-kept secret in Portland for all the good work you do. And I’ve seen you on all these amazing shows, so would you be interested or available to speak to a credit union audience about these topics in greater depth if they wanted you for a conference or something like that?

Manisha Thakor:
Absolutely. I’m always interested in any speaking event where I can make a positive impact on listeners’ lives.

Cameron:
All right, so before I land the plane, there was one last thing I had to ask you about because I know you’ve done so many interesting projects, but I was fascinated to learn that you were one of the cofounders of the ninety-nine girlfriends effort here in Portland. I was wondering if you’d just real quickly share what that is, what you’re hoping to accomplish, and why it matters.

Manisha Thakor:
Oh, it’s magical. It is a women’s collective giving group, and it happened in someone’s kitchen, three amazing women, Jinx Faulkner and Deborah Edwards and Eileen Brady. And basically, what can we do if we got everybody to put a little bit into the pool? And so they said, “I bet we could get 99 other women to put in $1,000, and together …” That’s how the name ninety-nine girlfriends got chosen. “… we’d have $100,000 that we can give away in the first year.” 117 women signed up.

Manisha Thakor:
So then they said, “Well, I wonder how much bigger we could grow this.” And next thing you know, four years down the line, the group is nearly … It’s 500,000 strong, and so we’re giving away $500,000 in grants, which is a sizeable amount if you’re a charitable entity. And it’s all from individual women giving $1,000, which is not an inconsequential sum. So I absolutely want to acknowledge that, but it’s just the power that can come. And the idea behind the group was to give to charitable organizations that are pushing on groundbreaking edges such that they kind of fall through the cracks of traditional requests for grants because they’re a little too avant garde, and they’re really trying to make big, wide sweeping societal change.

Cameron:
So cool. I wish I was eligible. All right, so.

Manisha Thakor:
Ninety-nine boyfriends is coming soon.

Cameron:
All right. I’m waiting for that one. Yeah, hit me up. So I’d just love to hear, what’s your final take? Anything you want to reiterate or anything you didn’t get to that you want to leave our listeners?

Manisha Thakor:
I think the most important thing that I want to say is that investing in eradicating or lightening up whatever financial tension you have in your life is truly one of the best investments of your time. It was amazing to me that literally the physical, external, and internal differences that people report when they’re able to eliminate sources of financial stress. And don’t worry about it if it’s a messy process. It is for everyone who is unraveling that kind of stuff. It doesn’t have to be smooth and easy. And so don’t be afraid if it feels lumpy, but you’ll dive in there. You will be so grateful when you come up for air. And that’s where your credit union can be really helpful, too. And the resources that we were just talking about are not being utilized nearly enough, so use them all.

Cameron:
I love it. Thanks so much for joining us.

Manisha Thakor:
Thanks, Cameron.

Cameron:
All right, thanks, everyone. Another enjoyable episode. I really, really enjoyed speaking with Manisha and learning more her background and expertise. My key takeaways today … I love Manisha’s story about being on the airplane back from her year abroad and just putting this triangle there and saying, “What are the three things I want?” and this kind of idea of of financial nirvana or I guess MoneyZen, as she calls it, being at that intersection of simplicity, having those small things in life that really bring us joy, and financial independence.

Cameron:
I really thought it was an interesting framing of what the biggest opportunities are for credit unions and going through demographics, looking at recent immigrants to the country, really focusing on women, which I thought was … It’s obviously her focus, and I think it is something, the idea of women being the CFO of the house. It’s sort of well known and obvious. It’s almost cliche that I think it gets overlooked.

Cameron:
And then also looking at psychographics … and I thought in particular people who, maybe voluntarily or not … But a lot of folks really enjoy the gig economy, and that’s become such a huge part of how we operate and that we really need to serve folks like that really differently. There’s stability. They don’t have pensions for sure, and they have a much different path to things like health care.

Cameron:
I thought it was interesting to think about the wild west of messaging and that being the podcasting and YouTube space. No doubt The Remarkable Credit Union can be the wild west sometimes, and just thinking about the framing for credit unions being how do we tell stories about real people with real problems getting real solutions in our communities … And that’s really an opportunity that’s almost impossible to match by much larger regional or national entities.

Cameron:
We’ve talked a lot here at PixelSpoke about the importance and challenge of financial education, and I thought her linkage was really astute of … Education and behavior change are really difficult to connect. And I think Dave Ramsey is a great example that we raised and this idea of how do we create a tribe and how do we set up a system where there’s not just education but we’re actively engaging in celebrating those little wins so that we’re reinforcing behavior.

Cameron:
And of course, I thought it was unforgettable of what can we learn from Weight Watchers. No BLTs. No bites, licks or tastes, and I think the idea is that it’s the little things that kill us. And she talks about in some of her other content of just doing it for a month. Just do a diary of all the things you spend money on. And rather than focusing on your mortgage or your car payment, things that often are kind of fixed costs and critical things to live, what are the little things that aren’t bringing you joy? So I thought that was a great framing there.

Cameron:
I also really loved her comment about money is never about money. It’s always about something else, and we really have to connect to our emotions to see this and just the opportunity that I have to get better. And then I think that probably everyone who works in a credit union can engage with and think about that emotional connection, that if we don’t think about the emotions behind the money, we’ll never be able to help someone.

Cameron:
And then lastly, I really enjoyed the resources that she shared. Breaking the Silence by Kathleen Burns, Your Money or Your Life by Vicki Robins, which is the only one that I have read … great book … and the Seven Stages of Money Maturity by George Kinder, which is where these sort of three foundational questions, I guess, were asked.

Cameron:
And I’ve been thinking about these a lot … of if I were financially secure in every way, how would I live my life? What would change, what that unearths? If I found out I only had 5 to 10 years to live, how would I live my life? What would change? And then lastly, if I found out I only have 24 hours to live, what would I be thinking? What did I miss? Who did I not get to be, and what did I not get to do?

Cameron:
All right, thanks for joining us today for another great episode. Until the next time, I wish you the best of luck in making your credit union remarkable.